God and the existence of evil...

[christianwarrior]

Part 1
The number one objection to existence of God is the existence of evil and suffering. http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsag ... fering.htm Atheists/agnostics usually will say something along these lines:
Evil and suffering exists therefore an all-good, all-powerful god cannot exist. A super-natural being likely does not exist. If a super-natural being does exist either he is incapable of getting rid of evil and suffering or he is unwilling to get rid of evil and suffering. If he is incapable, he is not all-powerful therefore cannot be called a god and is unworthy of worship. If he is unwilling, he is an unloving or perhaps evil therefore he is not worthy of worship.

There are religious people who answer the problem by affirming the existence of God but denying his omnipotence. A Jewish rabbi, Harold Kushner, who lost his son due a degenerative condition, wrote a famous book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." He believes that God is not all powerful because God chose to limit his own power to give us free-will. Due to the fact that God has limited his own power he cannot stop evil and suffering from occuring but helps us to get through it. http://content.time.com/time/arts/artic ... 82,00.html Another answer to the problem is to suggest that god(s) due to exist however he (they) are not all-good and in fact can be bribed. This is the answer that many ancient religions came up with. They believed that if the gods were displeased bad things would happen and many of their rituals involved paying tribute to make the gods happy. The gods were not concerned about whether or not something was good or evil but whether or not their mortals gave them gifts.

Since the problem is complex, the existance of suffering will be discussed another time. Here the existence of evil will be discussed.

God is omnipotent and all-good. He has the power to destroy evil and he hates evil. However God is also loving, compassionate, and merciful. He hates evil but is compassionate towards evil-doers. When evil occurs it happens because of the actions of a wicked person. God could eliminate evil right this second by wiping out all wicked people. However God tells his prophet Ezekiel over and over again that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked:

“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? (Ezekiel 18:21-23)

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” (Ezekiel 18: 30-32)

Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ (Ezekiel 33:11)

In his second letter, Peter writes about why God's judgment on the world has not come yet: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

God temporarily allows evildoers to continue to live in the hopes that the evildoers will turn from their ways. God is ready to forgive and have mercy on them. God is a loving God who wants to restore not to destroy. Two examples (there are many others) in Scriptures where this is made clear.

God sent Jonah to the Assyrian city of Nineveh. http://www.ancient.eu/Neo-Assyrian_Empire/ "Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me.”" (Jonah 1:1-2). The Lord told Jonah to go to Nineveh to warn them of the coming judgement of God. After trying to escape going to Nineveh, he was shallowed up by a giant fish and arrives at Nineveh. He went to Nineveh and warns them. "So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes." (Jonah 3:5-6). Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (Jonah 3:10). Jonah was unhappy that God did not pour out his wrath on the Ninevehites. "So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm." (Jonah 4:2). The Lord answers "And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?” (Jonah 4:11). The Ninevehites learn about God's moral law while Jonah learns about the compassion of God.

When Jesus appears before Saul and tells him to stop persecuting his followers.
As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. (Acts 8:3-4)
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” (Acts 9:1-5) Jesus has compassion against Saul who was persecuting the early church and appoints him to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles.

God's light is often most visible when his followers choose to forgive people who have transgressed against them. This causes the transgressors have their hearts softened and turn from their ways.

Corrie ten Boom, came from a family that was active in the Dutch Underground after the Nazis invaded Netherlands. Her family would hide and shelter Jews. After someone tipped off the Nazis, here whole family was punished. Her cousin Christaan died at the Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp. Her father, Casper, and sister, Betsie, died at the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp. Her brother brother Willem contracted spinal tuberculosis in a Nazi prison at Scheveningen and died in 1946 from it. Corrie ten Boom was released from the Ravensbruck Concentration by a clerical error in late 1944. In 1947, after speaking about forgiveness in a church in Munich, she comes face to face with one of the Nazi guards:

"And that's when I saw him, working his way forward against the others. One moment I saw the overcoat and the brown hat; the next, a blue uniform and a visored cap with its skull and crossbones...this man had been a guard at Ravensbruck concentration camp where we were sent. ...'You mentioned Ravensbruck in your talk,' he was saying. 'I was a guard in there.'
No, he did not remember me.
'But since that time,' he went on, 'I have become a Christian. I know that God has forgiven me for the cruel things I did there, but I would like to hear it from your lips as well. Fraulein, ...' his hand came out, ... 'will you forgive me?'
And I stood there — I whose sins had every day to be forgiven — and could not. Betsie had died in that place — could he erase her slow terrible death simply for the asking?
It could not have been many seconds that he stood there, hand held out, but to me it seemed hours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do...
And still I stood there with the coldness clutching my heart. But forgiveness is not an emotion — I knew that too. Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. 'Jesus, help me!' I prayed silently. 'I can lift my hand, I can do that much. You supply the feeling.'
And so woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. And as I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder, raced down my arm, sprang into our joined hands. And then this healing warmth seemed to flood my whole being, bringing tears to my eyes.
'I forgive you, brother!' I cried. 'With all my heart!'
For a long moment we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then." (The Hiding Place) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/boom.html

On January 8, 1956 five missionaries were murdered by the Huaorani tribe in Ecuador.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gT8EAA ... &q&f=false (pg. 10-19) The tribe was known as an extremely violent group of people. They had killed several employees of the Shell Oil company. They were also violent towards their own group, over half of the adult deaths in that tribe was by spearing from a fellow tribesman. http://www.amyfound.org/amy_writing_awa ... Rummo.html While the tribe was considered savage by the outside world, the missionaries believed them to be a group beloved by God. The five missionaries, Jim Elliot, Pete Fleming, Nate Saint, Ed McCully, and Roger Youdarian wanted to tell them about the Gospel. They would fly a small plane over the area and drop gifts to the tribe for several months. Eventually they landed the plane and interacted with the people. Their encounters were friendly however a couple of days later the Huaorani people attacked and killed all five missionaries. Two years after the murders, the wife of Jim Elliot, Elisabeth Elliot, and the sister of Nate Saint, Rachel Saint, went to meet the tribe. The tribe was moved by Elisabeth and Rachel's forgiveness that they started to forgive their fellow tribesman. Violence among the tribesman dropped dramatically. Later on Steve Saint, son of Nate Saint, moved to the area. He established a friendship with the person who killed his father. The man, Mincayne, adopted Steve Saint as a tribal son. Today Mincayne considers Steve Saint's children as his grandchildren and the children consider him as their grandfather. http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/ ... rgive.aspx

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, South Africa seemed to be on the verge of a civil war. For over a century non-whites had to endure humiliation of being considered inferior to the whites. They could not use the same water fountains, bathrooms, restaurants, and housing. In desperation to defeat the apartheid system the main liberation group, the African National Congress, had turned from a stance of non-violence to a stance of violent opposition. The ANC had even sought the aid of the Soviet Union. In the 1960s when they first started becoming violent, the ANC, had been careful to minimize civilian deaths. However by the 1980s the ANC had embraced full-on terrorism. Members of the ANC attacked nightclubs, bombs were set-off at restaurants, and people were executed by necklace (a tire was put on the necks of people and set on fire). These acts of terrorism, re-enforced the view of many whites had of blacks as savages and increased fear of a communist take-over. The apartheid Nationalist Party declared a state of emergency. Under the state of emergency the police could detain a suspect indefinitely without due process. Suspects were tortured and in many instances killed. The increased oppression resulted in more blacks engaging in terrorism. When the Nationalist Party finally saw the need to dismantle the apartheid system, violence was rampant. By a miracle, South Africa avoided a civil war. This was due to Nelson Mandela's emphasis on forgiveness and peace. There was also the work of Christian ministers who worked towards reconciliation. One of the reconciliation processes was through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The main goal of the commission was to get the victimizers to tell the truth about their deeds and get resorative justice for the victims. Several members of TRC were Christian clergymen. http://repository.berkleycenter.georget ... ission.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/8298089/Religio ... Commission
In the TRC this was a chance for the victims and victimizers to see each other face-to-face and forgiveness to occur. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQqbwOI0e2M Not only did the members of the apartheid government appear before the commission but only also people of the ANC who had committed the terrrorism. While South Africa has several issues right now, things would have been worse without the peace-making process.

Evildoers deserve to be punished. Sometimes we might wish for God to wipe out the wicked immediately. However God's love and mercy does not just apply to us but also the people we consider wicked. God has not yet wiped out the wicked because he wants to give them a chance to repent. The best way to deal with evil is through forgiveness and mercy. As much as it depends on us, we should forgive those who have wronged us and try reconciliation. We can also rested assured that God will one day eliminate evil... (see part 2)

[christianwarrior]

God and the existence of evil Part 2...

Part 1 was about God's mercy and love, here God's justice will be discussed.

In order for evil to cease existing either the wicked must turn from their ways or be wiped out. While Rabbi Kushner is correct in that evil exists because God has given us free-will to choose to obey his ways or not, he is incorrect when he suggests that God is no longer omnipotent. God is still sovereign. Mankind has a moral choice to choose good or evil, however God is in control. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... ation.html Throughout history when the wicked are given the chance to repent and do not take it, God eventually wipes out them out. The best way to eliminate evil is to have all the wicked turn from evil however when that does not occur the alternative is to wipe out the wicked.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... bible.html Is it interesting that the same atheists/agnostics who have an issue with existence of evil also have a problem with God wiping out the wicked? When God allows evildoers to live, God is being neglectful but when God deals with evil by eliminating the wicked, he is a cosmic dictator. "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:4-5) For several years Noah was a preacher of righteousness, the wicked people of the earth had plenty of warning between the time God commanded Noah to build the ark and the time of the flood. Throughout the Old Testament God sends prophets and preachers ahead of judgement to warn people about the wrath of God. When people repented, the Lord relented of his wrath. When people did not, judgement came. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... f_god.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/b ... o_die.html

But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete. (Genesis 15:16) God waited 400 years for the Amorites to repent before he used the nation of Israel to bring judgement upon them. http://www.bethinking.org/bible/old-tes ... s-killings

Not only has God throughout history wiped out evildoers, in the future God will eliminate evil once and for all by casting Satan and his followers into Hell.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:14-15)

When people ask how could all-loving God cast people down to Hell, they forget that God is not all-loving. He hates evil. "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;evil may not dwell with you." (Psalm 5:4) An all-loving being cannot logically exist for to love something is to hate its opposite. If love righteous, you have a hatred for wickedness. If you love fairness, you have a hatred towards corruption. God hates evil but has compassion towards the unrighteous but if the unrighteous continue to reject God, then God will seal them off for all of eternity. When the police capture a mass murderer they take the murderer to a maximum security prison so the murderer cannot escape and inflict further damage. In the same way God will isolate the wicked in an inescapable prison so that no more evil can be inflicted on his people.

Evil exists because people have chosen to rebel against God. God given us free-will whether or not to follow him. This also applies to angels. Satan and his followers choose to rebel against God. http://www.compellingtruth.org/if-God-knew.html The existence of love requires the potential for evil to occur because love is a choice that only beings with free-will make. http://www.christianapologeticsalliance ... l-defense/ A universe where evil can not exist is a universe where people could never make choices. The universe we live in was created by God who is perfectly good. If God was not perfectly good then the universe we live in would have no objective moral standards. If there are no objective moral standards then there would be nothing that is truly evil because what is evil would be a matter of opinion. What we call evil would be nothing more than what causes chemical reaction in our brains that make us feel aversion. http://www.bethinking.org/morality/can- ... ithout-god We do know that the moral law is exists.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (Romans 2:14)

Without God, morality is just subjective, it would just be one person's opinion versus another. There is no true "evil" under subjective morality because your concept of evil would be different than Hitler's concept of evil. How could you compare the two concepts? Objective morality means that morality exists as a meta-physical concept ,that is to say that particular actions or ideas are right and wrong regardless of human opinion (if 90% of a population believe that it is moral to kill everyone over the age of 50 that does not make it moral). Objective morality means that there is a moral code of which we can measure morality that is beyond the human brain. People from all civilizations, with or without the Bible, know that the moral code exists. The Moral Law points to a Moral Law giver. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOJeseNJneg The great writer C.S. Lewis points out that the moral code is not always the standard which we follow but it is the standard that we want others to follow when treating us. http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.co ... CqMaPldWJk When we mistreat others, we want mercy. When someone mistreats us, we want justice.

Humanity has chosen to rebel against God. http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wha ... iginal-sin Since God is morally just, any rebellion against God and his moral law is sinful and evil. However all of us have at one point or another violated the Moral Law. http://www.goodpersontest.com/ "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23 Humanity is fallen. http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html We see the evidence all over us in war, corruption, murder, stealing, and mistreatment of people. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... egood.html This is why many of the revolutions did not improve the situation and caused an increase in violence. The new guy in charge gets corrupted and becomes just like the bad guy they replaced (Chinese Communist Revolution, Russian Revolution, French Revolution, and the Arab Spring).This is what happened in many African countries where the "white colonists" were replaced by governments where the black leader exploited his people.

Humanity is in rebellion against God. Satan was the first rebel, anyone who is in rebellion of God, is following Satan whether conscious of it or not. God would be justified us in wiping us out and sending us to Hell. Remember to eliminate evil, God would have to seal off evildoers. When people ask "Why does God allow evil to exist", they are in essence asking why he has not wiped them out yet. The answer is that God does not want for that to happen but he will eventually if it has to come down to it. He allows us to live in the hopes that we turn away from wickedness and turn to him. Sin is what separates us from God however God has given the way to restore our relationship with him. The way is Jesus Christ. "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8 http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 45#p169918 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 The reason why good works cannot save someone is because good works have to do with external actions but does not change the heart. (The book of James speaks about actions showing the regenerated heart, not actions that causes a regenerated heart http://www.str.org/articles/faith-and-w ... RsZdfnF-Jk). If we do good works only to please God but not out of love then our hearts are still evil.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;" Titus 3:5 http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp138.htm When we receive Jesus, the Holy Spirit works inside of the spirit and soul of a believer. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 Although salvation by Christ is an instant process, the transformation that is the result of salvation (sanctification) takes time but we are assured of this "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Phillipians 1:6). Receiving Jesus is an acknowledgement of our sins and that we could not have salvation on our own. Once we have salvation, the Lord starts to transform our hearts so that we will desire to do righteousness deeds and the ability to live a righteousness life. We do not ability to become righteousness ourselves it is only through Jesus that we can truly turn away from evil. That was the only way of salvation back in the Old Testament times and the only way now. https://carm.org/questions/about-doctri ... ints-saved
For information about the Gospel check out these websites: http://www.campuscrusade.com/fourlawseng.htm https://carm.org/what-gospel http://www.christiananswers.net/gospel/
What about people who never hear about Jesus:
http://www.bethinking.org/is-christiani ... the-gospel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laA18HejfYg

Evil exists because God has given us free-will. Mankind and Satan with his demons have rebelled against God. God hates evil and will eventually get rid of evil by casting out evildoers into Hell. However God wants evildoers to come to him in repentenance. He is ready to forgive. After salvation, the Holy Spirit works in the soul and spirit of the new believer to transform him from an evildoer into someone who is like Christ. All evildoers who do not turn to God will be cast into Hell when God eliminates evil.

[B. W.]

Very good post warrior and well thought out!
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[PaulSacramento]

The problem of evil is,like suffering, an emotional one.
The moment you/anyone can conceive a reason for God allowing evil and suffering then it is no longer an intellectual problem.

Evil is the abstinence of Good, like dark is the absence of light.
You don't see a skeptic saying that the existence of "the dark" makes the belief of God unattainable.

The whole notion that an All-loving and All-powerful God would not allow evil and suffering is illogical since we know for a proven fact that good CAN and DOES come from evil and suffering.

Compassion, for example, which can be considered the highest expression of love because it is 100% other-centered, can not be developed, can't exist without suffering.
The very name "compassion" means to suffer ( passion) with others (com).

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
Evil is the abstinence of Good, like dark is the absence of light.

abstinence


n.noun

The act or practice of refraining from indulging an appetite or desire, especially for alcoholic drink or sexual intercourse.

So, evil is refraining from alcohol or sex?

[Storyteller]

PaulS wrote:
Evil is the abstinence of Good, like dark is the absence of light.

abstinence


n.noun

The act or practice of refraining from indulging an appetite or desire, especially for alcoholic drink or sexual intercourse.

So, evil is refraining from alcohol or sex?

That's me doomed then.

[Byblos]

PaulS wrote:
Evil is the abstinence of Good, like dark is the absence of light.

abstinence


n.noun

The act or practice of refraining from indulging an appetite or desire, especially for alcoholic drink or sexual intercourse.

So, evil is refraining from alcohol or sex?

Otherwise known as marriage.

[PaulSacramento]

That's what I love about you guys, you never take advantage of a person's faux pas.

[RickD]

That's what I love about you guys, you never take advantage of a person's faux pas.

I bet you $100 that you had to google "faux pas", to make sure you spelled it correctly.

[PaulSacramento]

That's what I love about you guys, you never take advantage of a person's faux pas.

I bet you $100 that you had to google "faux pas", to make sure you spelled it correctly.

You, Sir, have the boorish manners of a Yale man !

[Storyteller]

Notice you didn't refute the statement though

[PaulSacramento]

Notice you didn't refute the statement though

I know you are but what am I !?

[Storyteller]

A jouster?

[SoCalExile]

A little bathroom theodicy:

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

A little bathroom theodicy:

I like the bathroom theodicy.

1. evil = bad, 2. evil = not created by God, therefore, evil = death...which is what the Bible says.

FL