Those who never Heard the Message

[neo-x]

Rejection is not an issue. People reject God even after they are saved so then what? They are already saved, aren't they? So rejection is not an issue the issue is whether someone knows of the saving power of God, has it been presented to them? See the onus does not lie on the person at all who has never heard of that salvation. It lies on God or other people, evangelism or Calvinism. But I don't see how someone can be punished on having the wrong info or no info at all by no fault of their own? That just makes God illogical.

Have you ever rejected an invitation to be a terrorist? No, yes? Of course not because you have not ever been contacted by them, received any indication, message or invitation at all, so how does it make your fault if I punish you for not joining the said terrorist group?

As Paul said earlier, the fair that we moral, fallen, stupid humans can see, somehow escapes God is beyond comprehension.

[Philip]

Neo: Rejection is not an issue.

What Bible did you get THAT from - or rather, what one haven't you carefully read? God says repeatedly throughout Scripture that rejection most certainly IS a problem!

Neo: People reject God even after they are saved so then what? They are already saved, aren't they?

The Christian does continue to sin, but this sin is covered by their faith in Christ. No faith, no Christian, no salvation! Quite disingenuous this statement. And, again, you reject the clear teaching of Romans. In Paul's comments upon what the heathen absolutely know ENOUGH, in what God has ALREADY "shown" them, and what they reject is GOD Himself (of which Christ is a part - a part they may not know about, but a part, nonetheless). Very telling, in this Paul doesn't even mention their rejection of Christ or the Gospel.

Neo: So rejection is not an issue the issue is whether someone knows of the saving power of God, has it been presented to them?

But you have no Scriptural support for this. And why do missions at all? If ignorance of God's saving power, of their NECESSITY and need to be saved makes them spiritual virgins, why would we want to risk their rejection (and thus their eternal condemnation) IF ignorance is a defense. Bottom line, people can and do reject God without ever knowing His full story (Jesus, the Holy Spirit).

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

Neo: But I don't see how someone can be punished on having the wrong info or no info at all by no fault of their own? That just makes God illogical.

And that's because you apparently don't believe what Romans 1 says. Because it says they have all the initial info they need about God (to either reject Him or to want to know more and to honor Him in what they DO know), but they reject Him, even with what He has ALREADY made known to them - which is what "people are without excuse."

Paul lays it out (Romans 10) the contrast between one who hears the call and acts upon it - with the one who does not have it, through the subsequent rhetorical question which indicates one can't be saved without hearing and embracing the Gospel.

" “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

What is going on, neo? Has living in a Muslim nation so corrupted your faith?

FL

[neo-x]

Neo: Rejection is not an issue.

What Bible did you get THAT from - or rather, what one haven't you carefully read? God says repeatedly throughout Scripture that rejection most certainly IS a problem!

Neo: People reject God even after they are saved so then what? They are already saved, aren't they?

The Christian does continue to sin, but this sin is covered by their faith in Christ. No faith, no Christian, no salvation! Quite disingenuous this statement. And, again, you reject the clear teaching of Romans. In Paul's comments upon what the heathen absolutely know ENOUGH, in what God has ALREADY "shown" them, and what they reject is GOD Himself (of which Christ is a part - a part they may not know about, but a part, nonetheless). Very telling, in this Paul doesn't even mention their rejection of Christ or the Gospel.

Neo: So rejection is not an issue the issue is whether someone knows of the saving power of God, has it been presented to them?

But you have no Scriptural support for this. And why do missions at all? If ignorance of God's saving power, of their NECESSITY and need to be saved makes them spiritual virgins, why would we want to risk their rejection (and thus their eternal condemnation) IF ignorance is a defense. Bottom line, people can and do reject God without ever knowing His full story (Jesus, the Holy Spirit).

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

Neo: But I don't see how someone can be punished on having the wrong info or no info at all by no fault of their own? That just makes God illogical.

And that's because you apparently don't believe what Romans 1 says. Because it says they have all the initial info they need about God (to either reject Him or to want to know more and to honor Him in what they DO know), but they reject Him, even with what He has ALREADY made known to them - which is what "people are without excuse."

Paul lays it out (Romans 10) the contrast between one who hears the call and acts upon it - with the one who does not have it, through the subsequent rhetorical question which indicates one can't be saved without hearing and embracing the Gospel.

" “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

I guess we should just stop evangelism then, if God is so easily recognizable from nature, I mean that settles it then doesn't it?

The problem is nature may point to a God but if you have not heard of the gospel, that God may very well be krishna, allah or whatever, nature just gets you to deism at best, and that is also a hard thing for some.

[neo-x]

What is going on, neo? Has living in a Muslim nation so corrupted your faith?

FL

What corruption FL, what kind of teaching have you been getting that it obstructs such a clear thing?

[B. W.]

Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
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[neo-x]

Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
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Could you please be specific which part i should, as there are 5 parts?

[Storyteller]

I think you can still have faith in God without hearing His message. I concede there may be a few people who genuinely won't have heard the Gospel but I don't think it would be a large number of people.
I think God places us where He does, when He does, knowing the path we will take and does so giving us the best chance to be open to Him.

Christ is the only way to salvation. For those who don't know Him, or rejected Him because of a false gospel, I am sure God will know what is in their hearts.

[neo-x]

I think its impossible to have faith in a God you haven't heard of.

[neo-x]

Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
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I listened to the sermon. I don't get the point you wanted to pick up from it. Was it the "being liberal" christian, adding your own beliefs going against the Bible, Bible being offensive and all? Unless that is what you think I am doing here, I missed the other point if that is what you intended. Can you be clear please. Thank you.

[Storyteller]

I think its impossible to have faith in a God you haven't heard of.

Why?

Isn't it possible to feel Him in your heart? I always believed in something. I just never knew it was God. And, to be fair, there are very few people that have not heard of God anyway.

In the case of very small children I think again, God knows what is in their hearts and whether they would reject Him.

[Philip]

The problem with debating Neo utilizing Scripture is that it appears there is so much of what it says that he doesn't believe is true or is actually God's word.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

The problem with debating Neo utilizing Scripture is that it appears there is so much of what it says that he doesn't believe is true or is actually God's word.

It seems that we are witnessing someone drifting away from faith in God towards something else. Or, maybe all neo ever had was religion...

Hopefully, this is only a trial he's going through.

FL

[1over137]

Guys, neo asked you some questions for clarification.

[neo-x]

I think its impossible to have faith in a God you haven't heard of.

Why?

Isn't it possible to feel Him in your heart? I always believed in something. I just never knew it was God. And, to be fair, there are very few people that have not heard of God anyway.

In the case of very small children I think again, God knows what is in their hearts and whether they would reject Him.

Yes true you can feel the notion of a creator but he is/not the personal God you know as Jesus unless you heard the gospel. That way all you can have is an abstract vague idea of a mighty creator but faith in a mighty creator doesn't save anyone, only Christ does that.

And in case of small children and if what others here are saying is true than small children, by logic, should go to hell since they never had a chance to hear the gospel at all and Christ is the only way. And this is by no means a slam dunk, I just think people should have the guts to accept the logical conclusions to their ideas, even if those conclusion are horrible, like in this case.