Those who never Heard the Message

[Philip]

Neo: The only thing I can say is that when I look at the gospels, I see a God who would leave the 99 who are in the fold and goes for the one who is lost.

I would agree. But the question is, does He go beyond giving someone a certain basic understanding of Who and what He is if He intimately knows the heart of such a person, perfectly knowing that no amount of wooing, enlightening and understanding will keep them from remaining a determined rebel? If you could well KNOW/FOREKNOW that, seeing two, desperate beggars, that if you give beggar A million dollars and he will then use that to feed, clothe and educate himself, some of it to help others, and to become a productive member of society, but that if you give beggar B the same, beggar B will only squander the money, buy drugs, sell drugs, buy weapons and sell them gangs to create gang turf wars, theft and murder, helping destabilize and destroy a community - which beggar are is a responsible person going to give the million to? And what good would giving the beggar only bent upon destruction of himself and others?

And what good does God going after one that refuses His help, runs from His sight, spits in His face, pretends He's not there? What THEN? Should God FORCE them to come with Him; FORCE their love (forced love, the ultimate oxymoron)? What if God perfectly KNOWS a man's ultimate response to God?

God does not have to DETERMINE or CAUSE anyone's choices regarding Him. Is God limited by geography? Time? Place? Can not any person talk to God as He has already revealed Himself (He's as close as their own breath, according to the Apostle Paul). If they want to really know and obey God, do you not think God would want to honor that, in such a person?

Neo: He doesn't pre-determine whether the lost one one is going to reject him or not.

NO, He doesn't CAUSE a lost person to reject Himself. He provides them that choice. But make no mistake about it: He unmistakeably KNOWS what every person's heart and mind will ultimately yield, and short of forcing Himself on them. He does not need to guess. And He's ALWAYS know their decisions. And so He also knows the fate they will ultimately choose, based upon His criteria, values, knowledge and information He provides them - He does not need to GUESS!

Neo: And that is what probably saved a sinner like me in my darkest times. So that is what I believe. Everyone needs saving that is why we are ordered to evangelize because people need to hear this message. Its easy to sit in your comfy chair and think the lost ones are not worth bothering about but I wonder if Christ would do that. I think the lost ones are the all that heaven looks for, to see someone saved and rejoice in that.

But you've asserted that God overlooks people's lack of knowledge of the Gospel, but then you say,"because people need to hear this message." Well, I must ask, WHY do they need to hear the message if ignorance of it is overlooked by God? Why do you ignore the implications of Romans 10:14? Or, what do you think this passage actually means - especially within its context?

Is it not entirely possible that God sends the Gospel specifically to those whom He FOREKNOWS will be receptive to it? Do people have to know the Gospel and about Jesus to reject God? Not according to Romans 1! Not according to the countless heathens condemned in the Old Testament/pre-Christ. Why do you not accept it? Do you or do you not believe Romans 1 is the word of God?

If it were critical that ALL hear the Gospel - specifically, only those who God knows WOULD and WILL respond to it: 1) Why would He not tell EVERYONE in history, ALL AT ONCE? Write it in the sky! 2) Why the slow spread of the Gospel by missions, IF God does this an entirely different way that is not missions-dependent? Why would God withhold the Gospel from anyone, IF it's absence sealed their doom? Does God not know intimately ALL whom would benefit and embrace the Gospel IF it were sent? Of COURSE He does. Does God not know ALL who will one day have a desire to know Him or know Who He is? Does He then deny such people what they will one day desire?

Why do we not have even ONE example in Scripture of anyone being saved (post Christ) without them first hearing the Gospel?

[PaulSacramento]

We preach the Gospel because Our Lord commanded it (the Great Commission) and we do it because we want all to hear the Gospel, believe and be saved.
Does God rely solely on US to save those that are His?
Of course not, that is quite an insult to God since no believer can be everywhere and preach to everyone.
Christ said that those that know Him will Know His VOICE.
Even those that we preach to may not believe, it is up to God to open their hearts and mind and spirit to the Word.
As Christ said " no one comes to me unless The Father draws Him" and "No one comes to The Father except through Me".
The Gospel is the Good News of Salvation, but it is NOT salvation, Christ is.
The preaching of the Gospel is needed to that all my hear it BUT only The Father can open those that hear it to Christ.

BUT, The Father respects and loves ALL enough to ALLOW for people to reject Him if they so choose because God knows that you can NOT force love and the Gospel IS ALL about love.

God wants all to come to Christ, wants all to be saved, wants all to come to know His Son BUT He knows that not all will and not all will be saved because it is up to THEM.

There is no way around the one simple fact that unless one believes in Christ, puts his/her faith in Christ then they will be judged on their actions, whether they are righteous or not and as we know: "No one is righteous".

The issue is and always has been WHY a person rejects Christ.
And since only GOD knows, I leave it up to Him.

I will just remind us of this:
The hear the Gospel is NOT the KNOW it and to know IT is NOT to know HIM.
We have to KNOW CHRIST to be saved.
You can NOT have faith in that which you do not know.

[B. W.]

Neo and Story

Just ponder this for a time; roll it around in your mind, wrestle with it: Since God knows all things, then it is factual that he would know the final result of his own calling out to all people will have before he ever called out to anyone or even created...

That is what I am referring too on my prior postings.

This is a line of thinking that goes way beyond TULIP and Armenienism thought on this matter. Those two are actually weak theories on predestination that create discord an disunity within the body of Christ. It is time we go beyond these and take a look at the big picture instead.

Just a casual reading of Romans 1:20,21,22,23 expresses that God does speak to all humanity in many shapes and forms and that it is the folks themselves that freely reject. From this, God knows best what to do as I earlier expressed.

The true sovereignty of God goes way above the intellect of Calvinism, Armenienism concepts. It is in that true sovereignty of His, that I find rest, real peace, on this very matter. May the Lord himself enlighten you on this matter too and find that same rest.

I have a question B.W.: where is Satan in this?
Does he influence people to the point they do not believe in God? If yes, are those people responsible for their rejection?
Does he not influence people to that point? If yes, what power does he have then?

The bible mentions and classes him as the ruler of this world's system so yes he influences people to reject the real God. Does this absolve humanity - NO! In the Garden of Eden the devil was exposed and condemned. Satan is called the father of lies, the father of the sons/daughters of disobedience, Father of pride... the adversary. Those that follow after him do so of their own free will. Free moral agency cuts both ways.

I make this suggestion: go through the bible and look at all the verses that make mention of God's character such as Deut 32:4, Exodus 34:6.7. Job 34:10-12 and imagine how a person can pit God's own attributes against themselves in order to entrap God to go counter against his own attributes. This is the nature of pride and rebellion - make another live up to their own standards and use any means because the ends justify the means. In the devil's case, exalt his rule above God's.

One of the ploys the enemy uses is to play on God's life giving nature he gives to creative intelligent beings. For example, God gives life as a gift and God reneges on no gift, promise, or calling. He gave life and will not extinguish such intelligent life into a non-existence. Add to this, the slow to anger, attribute of God and ask yourself: how could the devil reason that he could overthrow God's ruling order? Answer - pit God's own attributes and nature against God, have him go contrary to these.

Next question - why would God allow this being in the first place? Answer - what does God have to fear since he is all powerful and all knowing? He can use this to remove all sin, dysfunction, justly, in time and prove his goodness while maintaining his holiness. In other words, like a refiner fires, God can purge evil dysfunction out of the universe in time and in the process be just to all. In this he is all powerfully able. Why do you think Jesus stated this on the cross: Luke 23:34. You see, He released us from the power of the devil... as it is written in: Heb 2:14, 15.

This poses a test, who will freely return to God and those who will not. Despite already knowing the final outcome his WORD (John 1:1,2,3,14) will have on all people and the revelation of himself to all (Romans 1:18,19,20,21) will have - he still calls and reveal himself. This does no injustice to anyone. He sent Jesus and still people refuse to believe that there is such a thing called sin that d**mns the soul creating havoc out of life.

God is not unjust to inflict wrath due to him leaving no stone unturned in his judgments as he is slow to anger. He does not even have to do this since he foreknows all things, but he is just to all nevertheless, even to the devil. The devil and devils and children of pride seek to pit God's attributes against God's own nature but this fails and at a later time its dross removed. Therefore, as it is written in Matt 25:41,46 - a place of recompense was made that respects the gift of life God made and reneges it not. Of that place he sent forth Jesus to spare us who will return to Him by his offer of grace through faith. That is fair and just, especially in the light of what Jesus went through...

Or responsibly is to be lights to the world to those around us, living a life of living transformation out of darkness and changed into his light (Eph 5:5-12). We shine to those who he sends us. The rest, we do our best with and leave them to the hands of God through prayers and trusting God as in charge. We cannot live our lives is a state of panic and worry about all the people we see at the Market place, the Shops, the Malls, the Park - only those he draws your way.

The others we see may have already been drawn, others need another person to impact them as you cannot, yet others reject no matter what. What is best here? Answer: Rest in the Sovereignty of God. He may call folks to go to the faraway places to reach others he may call you or not and if so, He undeniably confirms saying go. The Lord God is in charge and more so than it first appears. So let not any of us fall into the devils fairness trap which is nothing more an attempt to have God act contradictory to himself.

Blessings
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[stuartcr]

How does God handle those people that hear the word, but do not believe someone really came back from the dead?

How do people make themselves truly believe?

The resurrection is vital to faith. No resurrection, no faith.

I don't think you can make yourself believe. Belief comes from the heart.

How does this belief get into the heart?

[stuartcr]

How does God handle those people that hear the word, but do not believe someone really came back from the dead?

How do people make themselves truly believe?

I think that God, being God, KNOWS why people reject Him or why people don't believe in Him.
Far better than they do actually because while we can fool ourselves, we can't fool Him.
Like the skeptic that THINKS he doesn't believe because he sees no evidence BUT really does not believe because to believe in God means that he must change his life and stop doing what deep down he knows is wrong.

Doesn't God know whether or not a person is going to reject Him or not/ He must know what has been, what is, and what will be in a persons' heart, doesn't He?

[stuartcr]

The problem with debating Neo utilizing Scripture is that it appears there is so much of what it says that he doesn't believe is true or is actually God's word.

Is it possible for someone to believe in God, but not that the bible is the word of God?

[stuartcr]

What's TULIP?

Please do a small search, Calvinism TULIP. While not all of it, it basically says that God saves those whom he choose to and reject people who he chooses to for no reason at all but his own pleasure, that basically means god forekknows and decides who is saved and who's not.

It basically renders evangelism null, something which some here are unwantingly making a case for.

If God knows the future and the details of our deaths, why wouldn't He know who is saved and who isn't?

[stuartcr]

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

You mean everyone here could be wrong?

[Storyteller]

How does God handle those people that hear the word, but do not believe someone really came back from the dead?

How do people make themselves truly believe?

The resurrection is vital to faith. No resurrection, no faith.

I don't think you can make yourself believe. Belief comes from the heart.

How does this belief get into the heart?

Good question! My honest answer is I dont know but my guess would be the Holy Spirit.

[1over137]

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

You mean everyone here could be wrong?

No, that is not what I meant to say.
Maybe someone here has correct understanding.

[Storyteller]

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

You mean everyone here could be wrong?

No, that is not what I meant to say.
Maybe someone here has correct understanding.

As human beings, how can we really fathom the thoughts and intentions of God? If we understood God totally, there would be nothing left to discover.
I don`t think God intends us to understand everything, at least, not on this earth, in this lifetime. Maybe, in Heaven we will have all the answers? Even then, I am not sure we will because if we understand everything wouldn`t that make us God?

We can hunger for the truth, maybe that is part of being human, that hunger for truth. How can we, as humans, ever know the whole truth?

[1over137]

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

You mean everyone here could be wrong?

No, that is not what I meant to say.
Maybe someone here has correct understanding.

As human beings, how can we really fathom the thoughts and intentions of God? If we understood God totally, there would be nothing left to discover.
I don`t think God intends us to understand everything, at least, not on this earth, in this lifetime. Maybe, in Heaven we will have all the answers? Even then, I am not sure we will because if we understand everything wouldn`t that make us God?

We can hunger for the truth, maybe that is part of being human, that hunger for truth. How can we, as humans, ever know the whole truth?

I did not have the whole truth on my mind. Maybe someone here has correct understaning of "what about those who never heard the gospel". Once one my friend told me - avoid those who claim they know everything.

[Storyteller]

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

You mean everyone here could be wrong?

No, that is not what I meant to say.
Maybe someone here has correct understanding.

As human beings, how can we really fathom the thoughts and intentions of God? If we understood God totally, there would be nothing left to discover.
I don`t think God intends us to understand everything, at least, not on this earth, in this lifetime. Maybe, in Heaven we will have all the answers? Even then, I am not sure we will because if we understand everything wouldn`t that make us God?

We can hunger for the truth, maybe that is part of being human, that hunger for truth. How can we, as humans, ever know the whole truth?

I did not have the whole truth on my mind. Maybe someone here has correct understaning of "what about those who never heard the gospel". Once one my friend told me - avoid those who claim they know everything.

What about those who never heard the gospel? I don`t know but I am sure God does.

You have a very wise friend Hana.

I think we are all in danger of feeling we know it all or that we have all the answers. I never, ever want to feel like that. Doesn`t it say somewhere about how we should enter Heaven like children?

For me, this is a journey of discovery that I never want to finish. I don`t want to know everything there is to know. What would be left? The beauty of all this, for me, is that there is so much to discover.

[Philip]

To know ALL of God's mind would mean to have a complete understanding of ALL there ever was, is, or ever will be.

But while God left some mysteries in Scripture, it was primarily given so as to be instructive and beneficial - meaning, properly studied, most of it CAN be understood and applied. Otherwise, it would be of little good to us. Scripture that is not God-inspired and given, is useless to us. But a study of the history of how the Church received the Bible shows a protected history and continuity that is remarkable. So, while there are false gospels and groups who add to Scripture, there is a protected whole that we can have faith to be God's unified Word. As God is all powerful, as He came to DIE for His Word that points to Christ, would He not find it important to protect and preserve that word? Would He not have the POWER to protect it? Those that assert that many parts of Scripture are not God's actual inspired words are on very dangerous ground. They are picking and choosing what parts to believe and what not to. And if we couldn't know the difference, the Bible would be just a matter of a guessing and debating truths from non-truths that would be meaningless to us. So, is God in control or not? Is His word important to Him or not? If you believe that Scripture is mostly JUST the words of man, that much of it is not God's word, then what does that say about God and how He views its integrity? He created a world and universe of unfathomable detail and complexity, and yet people think He didn't think it important - or COULDN'T - protect His word???!!! Absurd!

[PaulSacramento]

How does God handle those people that hear the word, but do not believe someone really came back from the dead?

How do people make themselves truly believe?

I think that God, being God, KNOWS why people reject Him or why people don't believe in Him.
Far better than they do actually because while we can fool ourselves, we can't fool Him.
Like the skeptic that THINKS he doesn't believe because he sees no evidence BUT really does not believe because to believe in God means that he must change his life and stop doing what deep down he knows is wrong.

Doesn't God know whether or not a person is going to reject Him or not/ He must know what has been, what is, and what will be in a persons' heart, doesn't He?

Yes.