The Gap theory

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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neo-x
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by neo-x »

RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
If Moses didn't know then he was writing what? An inspired word? If Moses didn't know then he didn't know and he taught everyone the wrong thing. And it just so happens that God who was speaking to him on a day to day basis, forgot to correct him?
But you are saying that exactly because the text and the authors never call for a GT, they always return to six days of creation and Adam being the first man. If GT is true then Adam can't be the first man. And Moses did not write about the Gap then obviously Moses didn't know or else he would have made matter clearer.
Neo,

I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to discredit the gap theory because of what you believe the bible teaches. Because what you believe the bible teaches about Adam being the first man, and the six day creation, if you're being honest, also should be used to disprove the evolution you believe in.

So, on one hand, you argue for the gap theory not being true because the bible shows it's wrong. And on the other hand, you believe in evolution, even though the bible shows it's wrong(according to your argument!!!!!)

You are sawing off the branch you are sitting on!!!
Or, perhaps you prefer, hoist by your own petard!!
The bible internally shows why the GT is invalid. Which is in the sphere of biblical influence. GT doesn't need science to prove it false, its a belief on a misinformed reading of scripture. So I am correcting that. I don't believe the story as you already know to be entirely true. But that is my belief. Its not supported by the Bible and I accept that and what it entails.

However on the other hand GT is being claimed to be Biblical. And I don't think it is.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Audie »

neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
If Moses didn't know then he was writing what? An inspired word? If Moses didn't know then he didn't know and he taught everyone the wrong thing. And it just so happens that God who was speaking to him on a day to day basis, forgot to correct him?
But you are saying that exactly because the text and the authors never call for a GT, they always return to six days of creation and Adam being the first man. If GT is true then Adam can't be the first man. And Moses did not write about the Gap then obviously Moses didn't know or else he would have made matter clearer.
Neo,

I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to discredit the gap theory because of what you believe the bible teaches. Because what you believe the bible teaches about Adam being the first man, and the six day creation, if you're being honest, also should be used to disprove the evolution you believe in.

So, on one hand, you argue for the gap theory not being true because the bible shows it's wrong. And on the other hand, you believe in evolution, even though the bible shows it's wrong(according to your argument!!!!!)

You are sawing off the branch you are sitting on!!!
Or, perhaps you prefer, hoist by your own petard!!
The bible internally shows why the GT is invalid. Which is in the sphere of biblical influence. GT doesn't need science to prove it false, its a belief on a misinformed reading of scripture. So I am correcting that. I don't believe the story as you already know to be entirely true. But that is my belief. Its not supported by the Bible and I accept that and what it entails.

However on the other hand GT is being claimed to be Biblical. And I don't think it is.
If it really is Biblical, that would be a shame. Things cannot be both true and false, and "gt' is as false as bat boy and nessie. Likewise with yec, flood, and some other simple minded absurdities.

Despite the impression some may choose to have of me, I hold out the possibility that there may be a core of truth and validity to Christianity.

How to wade thru the conflicting claims, I dont know. Im far from seeing a path.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Storyteller »

Keep looking for that path Audie, I promise you, it`s there.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Jac3510 »

abelcainsbrother wrote:Jac, can you explain to me if past bible scholars said it can be translated became why you trust the new scholars so much?Also I believe God's world is living and it can reveal things at the right time,like a revelation but yet you seem to deny this. Perhaps instead of trying to convince you of the gap theory I should try a different approach and explain why I can no longer accept the young earth interpretation,and you can address my reasons.Now that I understand the gap theory I can see why I was so wrong to believe the bible teaches a 6000 year old earth.

Here are some problems I now see with the young earth interpretation.

1. On what day were the angels created in Genesis 1? Because it does not mention angels being created on any of the 6 days of creation and yet we know they exist but to believe the young earth interpretation you must assume when angels were created.With the Gap theory I don't assume,for if we do a biblical study about angels we know that they sang and rejoiced when God first created the earth.Job 38:4-7" Wherewast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?declare,if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof,if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it?Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?or who laid the corner stone thereof: When the morning stars sang together,and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" This right here shows that angels had already been created before God created the earth,but also notice sons of God,who were these sons of God? They were a race of men that were on the earth God created in the beginning and we have fossils of primates to confirm it. So it seems to me that the bible and science bear this out.

OK but if you start off and say verse 2 cannot be translated became and you make verse 1,2 and 3 of Genesis 1 all apart of the first day then you have a problem because angels had already been created and this is why they are not mentioned being created on any of the 6 days of creation. This also implies that Lucifer was a good angel at this time and later sinned I would say before God made this world in Genesis 1.

In Genesis 1 Notice the word made until the 5th and 6 th day,God created new kinds of creatures like whales and man but everything else he made which means the material was already there for both the heavens and the earth,this means the sun,moon and all of the stars and planets in the universe but also the earth and the kinds of life he makes "after their kind" or " after his kind" made not create,this is restoration of what was already created in the beginning.

2.2nd Peter 3::4 makes it clear that scoffers will say" Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep,all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" and yet you as a young earthed have a problem because first off,everybody knows about Noah's flood but evenso you must ignore this verse right here knowing that this world has went on since Adam and Eve,yet you must ignore this in order to say Genesis 1:2 cannot be translated " became" instead of " was" you claim it and believe it,but know this world has went on including Noah's flood.

3. 2nd Peter 3:5-7" For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the HEAVENS were of old,and the EARTH standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the WORLD that then was,being overflowed with water perished:" You as a young earther make Noah's flood fit here,but it cannot be done based on a biblical study of Noah's flood,for we know in Noah's flood only the earth was flooded,but Peter describes both the heavens that were of old,and the earth flooded which is a much much worse kind of flood than Noah's flood.Yet to hold to a young earth interpretation you must ignore what Peter describes and make Noah's flood fit into it,but then on top of it you must ignore the scientific evidence of the earth,the earth is billions of years old,the fossil evidence,the geological evidence of death and extinction that confirm the bible true,you must ignore it and make it fit into Noah's flood,ignoring that a former world perished in water that the bible tells us and the scientific evidence confirms.
Young earthers are ignoring a lot of scientific evidence in order to hold to a rigid interpretation that ignores what the bible actually teaches for if a former world existed that perished like Peter declares the evidence in the earth should bear it out and this makes the earth older than 6000 years old and without having to stretch the 6 days of creation out.It is revealed as a revelation of God's word and the scientific evidence that confirms it true.

Jesus said,If the people do not praise me the rocks will cry out and they do.

There are more reasons too but these 3 are good for now why the young earth interpretation is wrong.
Really? I give you a substantive argument on Gen 1 and how it renders the GT an impossible understanding of the text and your response is to attack YEC?

I'm not having that conversation. Grant YEC is foolish. That doesn't in any way grant one iota of credibility to GT foolishness. Nor am I having a conversation about the NT. The question is what Genesis 1 means in its own context. Again, if you want to adopt a hermeneutic that says that Moses could have been wrong about what his own words meant, then fine. Everyone can see that's how you justify your position and reject it accordingly. I would just point out that if that is possible, then it is equally possible that Peter didn't know what his own words meant and that later revelation may show him and us that he was wrong about what he thought he wrote, too. Therefore, no understanding of Scripture is possible whatsoever. Scripture is literally meaningless on such a defense. So adopt it if you like. If you do, I'll just take it as a public admission of the failure of the GT to ground itself in the actual text of Genesis, and, in fact, an admission that Genesis, as it is written, contradicts the GT. For those of us, then, who take Genesis seriously, we are content to write it off--which is exactly what scholars today have done.

And can I explain why the NIV has it in a marginal note? Yes, I can. But I'm not going to waste my time if you are just going to continue throwing out red herrings like this. Instead, I'll just ask you: if you think "became" is such a credible reading, why does no scholar today and no modern translation defend it? Can you even show me a modern translation (one published after 1990) that offers "became" so much as a marginal reading? Given the nature of publication, I would be surprised if you can, but only mildly so. I would bet that you can't.

Anyway, here's the bottom line: you are the one insisting that the rendering is legitimate, so you have to defend that claim. I've aleady told you why it is not and offered my explanation. Again, the word "became" makes 1:2 an independent clause. We now know (from the field of (Hebrew) discourse grammar, which only matured after the publication of the NIV) that the verse is not independent but rather is introduced by a waw disjunctive and is comprised of three dependent clauses. Therefore, the rendering "became," which while technically within the semantic range of the perfect hayah is already highly questionable at best, is just invalid. We didn't know that fifty years ago. We do today. We've known it, though, for at least the last twenty. If you want more, look up Waltke's discussion on the matter. If you know even a tenth as much as you pretend to about the GT, you will be familiar with his criticism, as it is absolutely devestating and sums up exactly why conservative and evangelical scholars today regard it as absurd.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Jac3510 wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Jac, can you explain to me if past bible scholars said it can be translated became why you trust the new scholars so much?Also I believe God's world is living and it can reveal things at the right time,like a revelation but yet you seem to deny this. Perhaps instead of trying to convince you of the gap theory I should try a different approach and explain why I can no longer accept the young earth interpretation,and you can address my reasons.Now that I understand the gap theory I can see why I was so wrong to believe the bible teaches a 6000 year old earth.

Here are some problems I now see with the young earth interpretation.

1. On what day were the angels created in Genesis 1? Because it does not mention angels being created on any of the 6 days of creation and yet we know they exist but to believe the young earth interpretation you must assume when angels were created.With the Gap theory I don't assume,for if we do a biblical study about angels we know that they sang and rejoiced when God first created the earth.Job 38:4-7" Wherewast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?declare,if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof,if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it?Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?or who laid the corner stone thereof: When the morning stars sang together,and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" This right here shows that angels had already been created before God created the earth,but also notice sons of God,who were these sons of God? They were a race of men that were on the earth God created in the beginning and we have fossils of primates to confirm it. So it seems to me that the bible and science bear this out.

OK but if you start off and say verse 2 cannot be translated became and you make verse 1,2 and 3 of Genesis 1 all apart of the first day then you have a problem because angels had already been created and this is why they are not mentioned being created on any of the 6 days of creation. This also implies that Lucifer was a good angel at this time and later sinned I would say before God made this world in Genesis 1.

In Genesis 1 Notice the word made until the 5th and 6 th day,God created new kinds of creatures like whales and man but everything else he made which means the material was already there for both the heavens and the earth,this means the sun,moon and all of the stars and planets in the universe but also the earth and the kinds of life he makes "after their kind" or " after his kind" made not create,this is restoration of what was already created in the beginning.

2.2nd Peter 3::4 makes it clear that scoffers will say" Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep,all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" and yet you as a young earthed have a problem because first off,everybody knows about Noah's flood but evenso you must ignore this verse right here knowing that this world has went on since Adam and Eve,yet you must ignore this in order to say Genesis 1:2 cannot be translated " became" instead of " was" you claim it and believe it,but know this world has went on including Noah's flood.

3. 2nd Peter 3:5-7" For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the HEAVENS were of old,and the EARTH standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the WORLD that then was,being overflowed with water perished:" You as a young earther make Noah's flood fit here,but it cannot be done based on a biblical study of Noah's flood,for we know in Noah's flood only the earth was flooded,but Peter describes both the heavens that were of old,and the earth flooded which is a much much worse kind of flood than Noah's flood.Yet to hold to a young earth interpretation you must ignore what Peter describes and make Noah's flood fit into it,but then on top of it you must ignore the scientific evidence of the earth,the earth is billions of years old,the fossil evidence,the geological evidence of death and extinction that confirm the bible true,you must ignore it and make it fit into Noah's flood,ignoring that a former world perished in water that the bible tells us and the scientific evidence confirms.
Young earthers are ignoring a lot of scientific evidence in order to hold to a rigid interpretation that ignores what the bible actually teaches for if a former world existed that perished like Peter declares the evidence in the earth should bear it out and this makes the earth older than 6000 years old and without having to stretch the 6 days of creation out.It is revealed as a revelation of God's word and the scientific evidence that confirms it true.

Jesus said,If the people do not praise me the rocks will cry out and they do.

There are more reasons too but these 3 are good for now why the young earth interpretation is wrong.
Really? I give you a substantive argument on Gen 1 and how it renders the GT an impossible understanding of the text and your response is to attack YEC?

I'm not having that conversation. Grant YEC is foolish. That doesn't in any way grant one iota of credibility to GT foolishness. Nor am I having a conversation about the NT. The question is what Genesis 1 means in its own context. Again, if you want to adopt a hermeneutic that says that Moses could have been wrong about what his own words meant, then fine. Everyone can see that's how you justify your position and reject it accordingly. I would just point out that if that is possible, then it is equally possible that Peter didn't know what his own words meant and that later revelation may show him and us that he was wrong about what he thought he wrote, too. Therefore, no understanding of Scripture is possible whatsoever. Scripture is literally meaningless on such a defense. So adopt it if you like. If you do, I'll just take it as a public admission of the failure of the GT to ground itself in the actual text of Genesis, and, in fact, an admission that Genesis, as it is written, contradicts the GT. For those of us, then, who take Genesis seriously, we are content to write it off--which is exactly what scholars today have done.

And can I explain why the NIV has it in a marginal note? Yes, I can. But I'm not going to waste my time if you are just going to continue throwing out red herrings like this. Instead, I'll just ask you: if you think "became" is such a credible reading, why does no scholar today and no modern translation defend it? Can you even show me a modern translation (one published after 1990) that offers "became" so much as a marginal reading? Given the nature of publication, I would be surprised if you can, but only mildly so. I would bet that you can't.

Anyway, here's the bottom line: you are the one insisting that the rendering is legitimate, so you have to defend that claim. I've aleady told you why it is not and offered my explanation. Again, the word "became" makes 1:2 an independent clause. We now know (from the field of (Hebrew) discourse grammar, which only matured after the publication of the NIV) that the verse is not independent but rather is introduced by a waw disjunctive and is comprised of three dependent clauses. Therefore, the rendering "became," which while technically within the semantic range of the perfect hayah is already highly questionable at best, is just invalid. We didn't know that fifty years ago. We do today. We've known it, though, for at least the last twenty. If you want more, look up Waltke's discussion on the matter. If you know even a tenth as much as you pretend to about the GT, you will be familiar with his criticism, as it is absolutely devestating and sums up exactly why conservative and evangelical scholars today regard it as absurd.

Jac,thanks for the explanation but you seem to be ignoring parts of the bible that I've brought up from both the old and new testaments that point to the gap theory being true.I wish you would review and go through them,I even gave more biblical reasons with neo and yet you seem to skim over them.

But then you skim over the biblical points I make and focus on what modern scholars believe.It seems to me you're saying the old bible scholars were wrong for claiming Genesis 1:2 can be translated became,and you dismiss it based on what modern scholars say while overlooking the places in both the old and new testaments that reveal the gap.You are basically saying I trust the modern biblical scholars of today more than I do the bible scholars of the past.

Jac even if Genesis 1:2 cannot be translated "became" like you believe that would not invalidate the gap theory at all.Because you could use the " and" instead of " became" if everybody already knew about the former flood of both the heavens and the earth that destroyed all flesh off of the earth Genesis 9:9-16. All flesh was not destroyed in Noah's flood and this points to a flood that did,God spared this world in Noah's flood so that Jesus would be born,but he did not spare the former world.So I have both Moses and Peter telling of a flood that destroyed all flesh off of the earth and yet you cannot even consider a much,much worse flood than Noah's flood that did destroy all flesh off of the earth.Moses did know of a flood that destroyed all flesh off of the earth and it was' not Noah's flood.

Jac,its not right to reject the GT based on what the majority believe,it matters what the bible says,not what man says who have agendas to push a young earth interpretation.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Jac3510
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Jac3510 »

I didn't ignore the NT evidence you gave. I addressed it exactly. To restate, I do not permit you do use the NT to contradict the O, nor do I permit you to use the NT to "discover" meanings in the OT that the originals audience were not capable of seeing. A gap between Gen 1:1 and 2 would be just such an example. If the NT teaches it, it contradicts the OT and would mean that Moses himself was wrong about what his own writings meant. The problem is not me addressing your incorrectly interpreted NT passages. The problem is your misinterpretation of Genesis 1. What I and others is that Genesis 1 rules out the gap theory. To use a silly example, Genesis 1 rules out the Sumerian belief that Marduk created the world by cutting Tiamat in half. It wouldn't matter if someone misinterpreted some NT passage and said it taught that earth is Tiamat's body. The fact is that Genesis 1 contradicts that belief. And just so with the gap theory.

Again, you are wrong on the actual facts of the matter. You cannot rely on the "and," and your assertion that you can proves to me that you have never read the scholarship on this at all. Do you not realize how irresponsible it is to adopt and defend a position before you explore its weaknesses? Take my own hobby horse: divine simplicity. Before I adopted it, I spent a full year reading what actual scholars who reject the doctrine say about it. But you obviously haven't done that. If you did, you would know that the "and" argument is linguistically absurd. That's exactly the point old gap theorists missed and what we now understand. Gen 1:2 does not begin wit "and."

Let me say that again: GENESIS 1:2 DOES NOT BEGIN WITH "AND."

You want to talk about old scholarship? Let me go far older than your early twentieth century scholars. Let me go back to people who spoke Hebrew fluently and gave us our first translation of the OT: the translators of the Septuagint (for those who don't know, that's the OT that was popular in Jesus' day, since most of the Jews at that time, and certainly those outside of Palestine, had forgotten most of their Hebrew). I know you don't read Greek, but bear with me. I'm going to help you understand something here if you want to. Here are the first ten sentences of Gen 1 as translated by the LXX (that is, the Septuagint):
  • 1 ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν
    2 ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος
    3 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω φῶς καὶ ἐγένετο φῶς
    4 καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ὅτι καλόν καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ φωτὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σκότους
    5 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ἡμέραν καὶ τὸ σκότος ἐκάλεσεν νύκτα καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα μία
    6 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως
    7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος
    8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα δευτέρα
    9 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός συναχθήτω τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς συναγωγὴν μίαν καὶ ὀφθήτω ἡ ξηρά καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως καὶ συνήχθη τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ὤφθη ἡ ξηρά
    10 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὴν ξηρὰν γῆν καὶ τὰ συστήματα τῶν ὑδάτων ἐκάλεσεν θαλάσσας καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν
You should be able to see that verses 3-10 all begin with a different word than verse 2. In verses 3-10, the word is καὶ, which even if you don't read Greek you should be able to sound out, because the letters are the same in English as in Greek: kai (pronounced like the word "eye" with the "k" sound in front of it; or the first syllable of the name "Kyle"). That word roughly means "and." Now notice the word that starts verse 2. Actually, there are two words: ἡ δὲ (pronounced "hay de"). For reasons I won't bore you with, the second word, de, always come second in a sentence when it is connecting two ideas. The first word (ἡ, "hay") means "the." For now, focus on the de. It roughly means "now" or "yet" (we'll clarify that more below). Notice what word it is NOT: kai!

See, the LXX translators knew something that your twentieth century scholars did not and that we have now learned. The word that de is translating is the Hebrew letter "waw." That letter also begins verses 3-10. But the LXX translators translated the "waw" in 1:2 with de and the "waw" in 3-10 with "kai." Why is that? The KJV translators didn't know, so that just translated all of them with "and." They were wrong.

This is the reason: we now know (as the LXX translators did then, since they spoke the language natively) that when the "waw" is connected to a verb, it is called a "waw conjunctive" and has the idea of carrying the story forward; it lets us know "this is the next thing that happened." And so they translated it with "and." But when the "waw" is connected to a NOUN, it is called a "waw disjunctive" and tells us something about the circumstances regarding the previous sentence. They had a great word to do that in the Greek language, but it was NOT "kai" (our "and"). It was de (our "now" or "yet"). You see, the actual function of "de" is to advance the logic or circumstances of the story, but not the action. "De" does not indicate what comes next, but rather something we should know about the idea it is connecting us to! (For a detailed discussion of this, see A Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament).

Do you see how all this applies? Gen 1:2 does not tell us something that happened AFTER Gen 1:1. When I keep telling you that 1:2 is a circumstantial clause, what I am telling you is that the grammar forbids it. If I was going to paraphrase Gen 1:1-2 to bring out the idea, which anyone who reads Greek or Hebrew and understands their grammar can very clearly see, I would do it like this:
  • In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth; when He did so, He created them in an uninhabited and uninhabitable state--it was total chaos--pitch blackness covered everything, and God's Spirit was hovering protectively over this new creation preparing it for what would come.
Obviously, that's a paraphrase, but that catches the force of the Hebrew (and Greek, if the LXX) grammar. You can see from that rendering that no gap is possible. Gen 1:2 is telling us something about the state of the original creation. The grammar requires that.

Now, are you really going to sit here and tell me that we should ignore the scholarly findings of the last forty years, findings that match what the LXX translators--people who were fluent in both Greek and Hebrew--were telling us? And on that, let me make one more point about our LXX translators. Look back at that FOURTH word in 1:2--that "ἦν" (pronounced "hane"). It means "it was." This is very important so don't miss this!

Greek, unlike Hebrew, has different words for "it was" and "it became" and even "it had become." Greek is very good at distinguishing tenses. Hebrew doesn't have that. In fact, Hebrew only has two tenses. I won't bore you with the details, but in practice, that means that the Hebrew word in 1:2 ("hayatah") could possibly be "was" or "had become" or "became." THAT is why you see that in the NIV margin. But that doesn't mean that it really could be any one of those. The circumstantial clause requires we translated it "was" because the others would render it an independent clause, contrary to the grammar. Now, the LXX translators apparently knew this. They had the option of translating that word "became" and they chose not to. They translated it, "Now it [the original creation] was . . ."

Again, are you really going to suggest that your twentieth century scholars knew Hebrew better than the native speakers and first rate theologians who translated the OT into Greek over 2000 years ago?

So bottom line: Gen 1:1-2 makes a gap between verses 1 and 2 impossible. It isn't just a passing point. It is terribly important you see this. Gen 1:2 tells us something about the original creation referred to in 1:1. The grammar requires that, and that RULES OUT a gap between 1:1 and 1:2. If, then, some later passage tries to find a gap between the two, then the passage contradicts 1:1-2 as Moses wrote it.

Lastly, all this is common knowledge these days. It is stuff you learn as a second year Hebrew student. This was cutting edge stuff in the 70s and 80s, but our understanding of Hebrew is LIGHTYEARS from where it was back then. We've learned a LOT. And I hope you find at least some of this a little helpful. If you can't see from this post why I'm not going to waste my time talking about what you are saying the NT says on this, then I can't help you. Consider this carefully. Pray over it. Again, I'm sorry you have so much invested in this, but you need to do the very, very, very hard work of admitting you were wrong and backing off. I know it is SO hard to reject a position you've come to love. I know. I have had to do it. It is painful. But it is the mark of honesty and humility, a willingness to bow to truth, which in the end is a willingness to bow to God Himself.

You're in my prayers, abel.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Philip »

Jac, fraid it ain't gonna do no good! But great effort! :D It would probably be a bit like Hugh Ross suddenly realizing that the earth and universe are mere thousands of years old :shock: :esurprised: :shock: :esurprised: :shock:. "Ruh-roh," Scooby says! Hugh would be agonizing, "they're goes the ministry - how am I gonna spin THAT???!!! :pound:
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Jac3510 »

tl;dr - wall of text post fail ughhhh :(

Edit:

"Waw conjunctive" in the post above should be "waw consecutive." Lots of details I left out that frankly I need to brush up on myself, but the points are the same regardless.
Last edited by Jac3510 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Jac3510 wrote:I didn't ignore the NT evidence you gave. I addressed it exactly. To restate, I do not permit you do use the NT to contradict the O, nor do I permit you to use the NT to "discover" meanings in the OT that the originals audience were not capable of seeing. A gap between Gen 1:1 and 2 would be just such an example. If the NT teaches it, it contradicts the OT and would mean that Moses himself was wrong about what his own writings meant. The problem is not me addressing your incorrectly interpreted NT passages. The problem is your misinterpretation of Genesis 1. What I and others is that Genesis 1 rules out the gap theory. To use a silly example, Genesis 1 rules out the Sumerian belief that Marduk created the world by cutting Tiamat in half. It wouldn't matter if someone misinterpreted some NT passage and said it taught that earth is Tiamat's body. The fact is that Genesis 1 contradicts that belief. And just so with the gap theory.

Again, you are wrong on the actual facts of the matter. You cannot rely on the "and," and your assertion that you can proves to me that you have never read the scholarship on this at all. Do you not realize how irresponsible it is to adopt and defend a position before you explore its weaknesses? Take my own hobby horse: divine simplicity. Before I adopted it, I spent a full year reading what actual scholars who reject the doctrine say about it. But you obviously haven't done that. If you did, you would know that the "and" argument is linguistically absurd. That's exactly the point old gap theorists missed and what we now understand. Gen 1:2 does not begin wit "and."

Let me say that again: GENESIS 1:2 DOES NOT BEGIN WITH "AND."

You want to talk about old scholarship? Let me go far older than your early twentieth century scholars. Let me go back to people who spoke Hebrew fluently and gave us our first translation of the OT: the translators of the Septuagint (for those who don't know, that's the OT that was popular in Jesus' day, since most of the Jews at that time, and certainly those outside of Palestine, had forgotten most of their Hebrew). I know you don't read Greek, but bear with me. I'm going to help you understand something here if you want to. Here are the first ten sentences of Gen 1 as translated by the LXX (that is, the Septuagint):
  • 1 ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν
    2 ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος
    3 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω φῶς καὶ ἐγένετο φῶς
    4 καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ὅτι καλόν καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ φωτὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σκότους
    5 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ἡμέραν καὶ τὸ σκότος ἐκάλεσεν νύκτα καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα μία
    6 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως
    7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος
    8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα δευτέρα
    9 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός συναχθήτω τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς συναγωγὴν μίαν καὶ ὀφθήτω ἡ ξηρά καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως καὶ συνήχθη τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ὤφθη ἡ ξηρά
    10 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὴν ξηρὰν γῆν καὶ τὰ συστήματα τῶν ὑδάτων ἐκάλεσεν θαλάσσας καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν
You should be able to see that verses 3-10 all begin with a different word than verse 2. In verses 3-10, the word is καὶ, which even if you don't read Greek you should be able to sound out, because the letters are the same in English as in Greek: kai (pronounced like the word "eye" with the "k" sound in front of it; or the first syllable of the name "Kyle"). That word roughly means "and." Now notice the word that starts verse 2. Actually, there are two words: ἡ δὲ (pronounced "hay de"). For reasons I won't bore you with, the second word, de, always come second in a sentence when it is connecting two ideas. The first word (ἡ, "hay") means "the." For now, focus on the de. It roughly means "now" or "yet" (we'll clarify that more below). Notice what word it is NOT: kai!

See, the LXX translators knew something that your twentieth century scholars did not and that we have now learned. The word that de is translating is the Hebrew letter "waw." That letter also begins verses 3-10. But the LXX translators translated the "waw" in 1:2 with de and the "waw" in 3-10 with "kai." Why is that? The KJV translators didn't know, so that just translated all of them with "and." They were wrong.

This is the reason: we now know (as the LXX translators did then, since they spoke the language natively) that when the "waw" is connected to a verb, it is called a "waw conjunctive" and has the idea of carrying the story forward; it lets us know "this is the next thing that happened." And so they translated it with "and." But when the "waw" is connected to a NOUN, it is called a "waw disjunctive" and tells us something about the circumstances regarding the previous sentence. They had a great word to do that in the Greek language, but it was NOT "kai" (our "and"). It was de (our "now" or "yet"). You see, the actual function of "de" is to advance the logic or circumstances of the story, but not the action. "De" does not indicate what comes next, but rather something we should know about the idea it is connecting us to! (For a detailed discussion of this, see A Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament).

Do you see how all this applies? Gen 1:2 does not tell us something that happened AFTER Gen 1:1. When I keep telling you that 1:2 is a circumstantial clause, what I am telling you is that the grammar forbids it. If I was going to paraphrase Gen 1:1-2 to bring out the idea, which anyone who reads Greek or Hebrew and understands their grammar can very clearly see, I would do it like this:
  • In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth; when He did so, He created them in an uninhabited and uninhabitable state--it was total chaos--pitch blackness covered everything, and God's Spirit was hovering protectively over this new creation preparing it for what would come.
Obviously, that's a paraphrase, but that catches the force of the Hebrew (and Greek, if the LXX) grammar. You can see from that rendering that no gap is possible. Gen 1:2 is telling us something about the state of the original creation. The grammar requires that.

Now, are you really going to sit here and tell me that we should ignore the scholarly findings of the last forty years, findings that match what the LXX translators--people who were fluent in both Greek and Hebrew--were telling us? And on that, let me make one more point about our LXX translators. Look back at that FOURTH word in 1:2--that "ἦν" (pronounced "hane"). It means "it was." This is very important so don't miss this!

Greek, unlike Hebrew, has different words for "it was" and "it became" and even "it had become." Greek is very good at distinguishing tenses. Hebrew doesn't have that. In fact, Hebrew only has two tenses. I won't bore you with the details, but in practice, that means that the Hebrew word in 1:2 ("hayatah") could possibly be "was" or "had become" or "became." THAT is why you see that in the NIV margin. But that doesn't mean that it really could be any one of those. The circumstantial clause requires we translated it "was" because the others would render it an independent clause, contrary to the grammar. Now, the LXX translators apparently knew this. They had the option of translating that word "became" and they chose not to. They translated it, "Now it [the original creation] was . . ."

Again, are you really going to suggest that your twentieth century scholars knew Hebrew better than the native speakers and first rate theologians who translated the OT into Greek over 2000 years ago?

So bottom line: Gen 1:1-2 makes a gap between verses 1 and 2 impossible. It isn't just a passing point. It is terribly important you see this. Gen 1:2 tells us something about the original creation referred to in 1:1. The grammar requires that, and that RULES OUT a gap between 1:1 and 1:2. If, then, some later passage tries to find a gap between the two, then the passage contradicts 1:1-2 as Moses wrote it.

Lastly, all this is common knowledge these days. It is stuff you learn as a second year Hebrew student. This was cutting edge stuff in the 70s and 80s, but our understanding of Hebrew is LIGHTYEARS from where it was back then. We've learned a LOT. And I hope you find at least some of this a little helpful. If you can't see from this post why I'm not going to waste my time talking about what you are saying the NT says on this, then I can't help you. Consider this carefully. Pray over it. Again, I'm sorry you have so much invested in this, but you need to do the very, very, very hard work of admitting you were wrong and backing off. I know it is SO hard to reject a position you've come to love. I know. I have had to do it. It is painful. But it is the mark of honesty and humility, a willingness to bow to truth, which in the end is a willingness to bow to God Himself.

You're in my prayers, abel.
Thanks Jac,
As you explain in very technical ways why Genesis 1:2 cannot be translated became,I think what you are claiming verse 2 says totally contradicts Isaiah 45:18. So somebody seems to be wrong as the bible does not contradict itself for you are explaining by your translation that God created the earth in chaos,yet it contradicts Isaiah 45:18 which clearly said that God did not create the earth in chaos and it is the same Hebrew word for chaos,so you have a contradiction and I don't.This is why it possible can be translated became.

The word of God does not contradict itself but yet you describing your translation makes it a contradiction and when I add in all of the other biblical points I brought up like Genesis 9:9-18 you just ignore it,or when Genesis 1:1 says the earth is dry land,then in verse 2 it is flooded and covered with water,it is a contradiction that you overlook to claim it cannot be translated became,for if the earth was dry in the beginning,it was not in verse 2 and this it why it can be translated became. Pray about it and " Let God be true and every man a liar" this is important stuff that needs to be taught as biblical truth.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by RickD »

Philip wrote:Jac, fraid it ain't gonna do no good! But great effort! :D It would probably be a bit like Hugh Ross suddenly realizing that the earth and universe are mere thousands of years old :shock: :esurprised: :shock: :esurprised: :shock:. "Ruh-roh," Scooby says! Hugh would be agonizing, "they're goes the ministry - how am I gonna spin THAT???!!! :pound:
Actually, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Then he could go into business with Ham. He's raking in the big bucks.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Jac3510 »

Isa 45:18 does not contradict Gen 1:2, but no matter. Why should I bother explaining that verse to you? I could. But why? Your process is always the same. Rather than deal with what Gen 1:1-2 actually say you just post other verses that you think give you the right to ignore Moses. So why should I think you will treat Isaiah any differently? You will just run to another verse.

As it happens, Isaiah offers no support for the gap theory. But until you stop using other verses to contradict Gen 1:1-2 there is nothing more to say. You have made all meaning impossible because if future texts can change the meaning of earlier ones then even your favorite proof texts are meaningless. After all future texts could change the meaning of them too!
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

:clap:
Jac3510 wrote:Isa 45:18 does not contradict Gen 1:2, but no matter. Why should I bother explaining that verse to you? I could. But why? Your process is always the same. Rather than deal with what Gen 1:1-2 actually say you just post other verses that you think give you the right to ignore Moses. So why should I think you will treat Isaiah any differently? You will just run to another verse.

As it happens, Isaiah offers no support for the gap theory. But until you stop using other verses to contradict Gen 1:1-2 there is nothing more to say. You have made all meaning impossible because if future texts can change the meaning of earlier ones then even your favorite proof texts are meaningless. After all future texts could change the meaning of them too!
Jac let the record show that I have not ignored anything you said as I take what you explained with respect because you know more about Hebrew than I do,but what I do know,I know well. Isaiah 45:18"For thus saith the Lord that CREATED the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and MADE it; he hath established it,and created it not in vain( chaos),he created it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." How does this not contradict your translation above? You claim the earth was created in chaos,but also notice when you read Genesis 1 the word MADE being used mostly,the only time you see the word create in Genesis 1 is in verse 1 and on the fifth and sixth day when God created whales,etc and man,every thing else he made.

The words create and made mean two different things as you should know,when God creates nothing is there but when he made things the material was already there and look at what all God MADE in Genesis 1 and it includes both the heavens and everything in it and the earth and this is why God was restoring the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1 and this lines up with what Isaiah 45:18 said. But also genesis 2:4 also,Isaiah 45:18 and Genesis 2:4 say pretty much the same thing if you notice the words create and made.

I think as long as you stay focused on Genesis 1:2 while ignoring other scripture,you're never going to be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together so don't get mad at me thinking you are explaining things I'm ignoring,so it is for naught,no I think you are ignoring what I've explained and the bible verses I have posted that back up the gap theory.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Audie wrote:
neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
If Moses didn't know then he was writing what? An inspired word? If Moses didn't know then he didn't know and he taught everyone the wrong thing. And it just so happens that God who was speaking to him on a day to day basis, forgot to correct him?
But you are saying that exactly because the text and the authors never call for a GT, they always return to six days of creation and Adam being the first man. If GT is true then Adam can't be the first man. And Moses did not write about the Gap then obviously Moses didn't know or else he would have made matter clearer.
Neo,

I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to discredit the gap theory because of what you believe the bible teaches. Because what you believe the bible teaches about Adam being the first man, and the six day creation, if you're being honest, also should be used to disprove the evolution you believe in.

So, on one hand, you argue for the gap theory not being true because the bible shows it's wrong. And on the other hand, you believe in evolution, even though the bible shows it's wrong(according to your argument!!!!!)

You are sawing off the branch you are sitting on!!!
Or, perhaps you prefer, hoist by your own petard!!
The bible internally shows why the GT is invalid. Which is in the sphere of biblical influence. GT doesn't need science to prove it false, its a belief on a misinformed reading of scripture. So I am correcting that. I don't believe the story as you already know to be entirely true. But that is my belief. Its not supported by the Bible and I accept that and what it entails.

However on the other hand GT is being claimed to be Biblical. And I don't think it is.
If it really is Biblical, that would be a shame. Things cannot be both true and false, and "gt' is as false as bat boy and nessie. Likewise with yec, flood, and some other simple minded absurdities.

Despite the impression some may choose to have of me, I hold out the possibility that there may be a core of truth and validity to Christianity.

How to wade thru the conflicting claims, I dont know. Im far from seeing a path.
Audie,there is scientific evidence for two floods but it is all how you look at the evidence.I have mostly here recently been explaining biblically why the GT is biblical,because I'm dealing with Christian brothers and sisters trying to convince them biblically it is true.
But there is scientific evidence to back up the floods.The first flood I'll call Lucifer' s flood because it was because of Lucifer' s sin and influence in the former world that caused God to flood both the heavens and the earth,which blocked out the sun,caused all life to die and the earth to freeze,now we already know about the ice age that started about 70,000 years ago and ended about 10,000 years ago.If God restored the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1 in order to have this world we now live in?the ice age ending about 10,000 years ago would fit into it being 6- 10,000 years ago when God restored everything to have this world on the earth.
So we already have the ice age backing up Genesis 1:2 in which the earth is flooded and frozen before he moves and starts restoring everything.

The only thing we need to do is look for evidence for a flood and in previous posts in earlier threads I posted a link about how much water is in outer space,if you go back and look at the link astronomers discovered a huge gigantic chunk of ice in outer space,which confirm that on the 2 and day of creation God had to remove water off of the earth and put it in outer space above the firmament- the first heaven which is the earth' s atmosphere.

Water in outer space confirms this biblical prediction that Moses could not have known without inspiration of God.Moses was right claiming water is in outer space but also the planet Mars used to have water on it,now this baffles secular scientists who wonder where the water went,we if God flooded both the heavens and the earth and removed the water?this is why Mars no longer has water on it,that baffles scientists.
So I have produced scientific evidence to back up Lucifer's flood.



They don't consider the bible so it is up to Christians to point it out and I am one that is doing that.

Now as far as Noah's flood I have posted scientific links that reveal world wide dust from the time of Noah's flood,now it may not prove the earth was flooded but it points to a world wide drought after Noah' s flood that caused the world wide dust.It amazingly dates to about 4500 years ago which would line up with Noah' s flood biblically about 4300 years ago.

Plus there is more scientific evidence but this just gets us started,but there is more evidence for both floods.
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by Jac3510 »

Once again, abel, you are wrong on the basic facts.

There is no such distinction between asah and bara. That's something gap theorists basically made up to support their claim. Once again, if I might refer to some more recent scholarship, allow me to quote from Gary Gromacki's article titled, "Genesis, Geology And The Grand Canyon" (Journal of Ministry and Theology 12:2 (2008)),
  • Gap theorists believe that the two primary words for “create” (בָּרָא used in Gen 1:1 and עשׂה used in Gen 1:25) refer to two different kinds of creation. They say that bara refers to primary creative activity, while asah means that God re-created out of previously existing materials. The Hebrew words are not so distinct. For example, Moses used bara of the creation of man out of previously existing material (Gen 1:27), and he used asah of the whole creation as the primary activity of God (Exod 20:11). Furthermore, he used bara of the creation of some animals (Gen 1:21) and asah of the creation of other animals (Gen 1:25). The real difference between these two words is that Moses used bara only of divine activity, and he used asah of both divine and human activities. (p.48)
So much for that distinction.

As for Isaiah 45:18, once again, you are not taking seriously (your claims to the contrary) that you have Isaiah directly contradicting the grammar of Gen 1:1-2. Do you not even consider the possibility that you have misinterpreted the passage? Go to soniclight.org and pull up Tom Constable's commentary on Isaiah. You would also do well to look at Keil and Delitzsch's comments (again, their commentary can be found online for free). The bottom line is that the phrase "לָשֶׁבֶת יְצָרָהּ" ("he formed it to be inhabited") are a standard example of Hebrew synonymous parallelism and show what Isaiah has in mind (as an aside, that very verse is another one that collapses your unjustified distinction between asah and bara).

The last problem I'd point out with your reading of Isa 45 is that it is unintelligible in its context. The whole section is a prophecy about the restoration of Israel. What does a reference to this so-called former world have anything to do with what Isaiah is actually talking about? But if you read the line in light of the whole prophecy (and see again the two commentaries I referred to above), you'll see that not only does this not contradict the proper reading of Gen 1:2, it actually contradicts the gap theory.

So why, pray tell, should I abandon the actual text and the grammatical emphasis of Gen 1:1-2 and call Moses a liar (or at least say that he didn't understand Hebrew!)? Why are you so convinced that Moses is wrong? Don't you think it is possible--indeed, given what we've already seen, that it is more likely--that you are misreading Isaiah? After all, if you are right, again, that means that Isaiah's own words are meaningless. If future prophecy can come along and change the meaning of earlier texts, then how do you know that the meaning of Isaiah hasn't been or won't be changed? If Moses could be wrong about what Genesis meant and it centuries to reveal it, how do you know that in a few centuries from now future revelation won't change the meaning of the texts you are looking at now and show that you don't know what these texts mean after all, too?

Or, you could just stick to good hermeneutics and interpret later texts in light of former ones. Let Gen 1:1-2 be Gen 1:1-2, and if later passages contradict your reading of that, then realize that your understanding of those later passages is just wrong.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The Gap theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Jac3510 wrote:Once again, abel, you are wrong on the basic facts.

There is no such distinction between asah and bara. That's something gap theorists basically made up to support their claim. Once again, if I might refer to some more recent scholarship, allow me to quote from Gary Gromacki's article titled, "Genesis, Geology And The Grand Canyon" (Journal of Ministry and Theology 12:2 (2008)),
  • Gap theorists believe that the two primary words for “create” (בָּרָא used in Gen 1:1 and עשׂה used in Gen 1:25) refer to two different kinds of creation. They say that bara refers to primary creative activity, while asah means that God re-created out of previously existing materials. The Hebrew words are not so distinct. For example, Moses used bara of the creation of man out of previously existing material (Gen 1:27), and he used asah of the whole creation as the primary activity of God (Exod 20:11). Furthermore, he used bara of the creation of some animals (Gen 1:21) and asah of the creation of other animals (Gen 1:25). The real difference between these two words is that Moses used bara only of divine activity, and he used asah of both divine and human activities. (p.48)
So much for that distinction.

As for Isaiah 45:18, once again, you are not taking seriously (your claims to the contrary) that you have Isaiah directly contradicting the grammar of Gen 1:1-2. Do you not even consider the possibility that you have misinterpreted the passage? Go to soniclight.org and pull up Tom Constable's commentary on Isaiah. You would also do well to look at Keil and Delitzsch's comments (again, their commentary can be found online for free). The bottom line is that the phrase "לָשֶׁבֶת יְצָרָהּ" ("he formed it to be inhabited") are a standard example of Hebrew synonymous parallelism and show what Isaiah has in mind (as an aside, that very verse is another one that collapses your unjustified distinction between asah and bara).

The last problem I'd point out with your reading of Isa 45 is that it is unintelligible in its context. The whole section is a prophecy about the restoration of Israel. What does a reference to this so-called former world have anything to do with what Isaiah is actually talking about? But if you read the line in light of the whole prophecy (and see again the two commentaries I referred to above), you'll see that not only does this not contradict the proper reading of Gen 1:2, it actually contradicts the gap theory.

So why, pray tell, should I abandon the actual text and the grammatical emphasis of Gen 1:1-2 and call Moses a liar (or at least say that he didn't understand Hebrew!)? Why are you so convinced that Moses is wrong? Don't you think it is possible--indeed, given what we've already seen, that it is more likely--that you are misreading Isaiah? After all, if you are right, again, that means that Isaiah's own words are meaningless. If future prophecy can come along and change the meaning of earlier texts, then how do you know that the meaning of Isaiah hasn't been or won't be changed? If Moses could be wrong about what Genesis meant and it centuries to reveal it, how do you know that in a few centuries from now future revelation won't change the meaning of the texts you are looking at now and show that you don't know what these texts mean after all, too?

Or, you could just stick to good hermeneutics and interpret later texts in light of former ones. Let Gen 1:1-2 be Gen 1:1-2, and if later passages contradict your reading of that, then realize that your understanding of those later passages is just wrong.
Gap theorists believe that the two primary words for “create” (בָּרָא used in Gen 1:1 and עשׂה used in Gen 1:25) refer to two different kinds of creation. They say that bara refers to primary creative activity, while asah means that God re-created out of previously existing materials. The Hebrew words are not so distinct. For example, Moses used bara of the creation of man out of previously existing material (Gen 1:27), and he used asah of the whole creation as the primary activity of God (Exod 20:11). Furthermore, he used bara of the creation of some animals (Gen 1:21) and asah of the creation of other animals (Gen 1:25). The real difference between these two words is that Moses used bara only of divine activity, and he used asah of both divine and human activities. (p.48)
I have some problems with this first off nothing in it refutes our point about create and made when the words create and made are used God is the one doing it,not human activies,how can he claim human activities when it is God doing it?If there is no distinction then between the words create and made Then explain Genesis 2:4 and Isaiah 45:18,the words bars and asah mean different things based on them passages,I detect a bias against the gap theory and I'm not sure why I should trust him because of all of the other scriptures that point to the gap. Also he pointed out exactly what I said,God made some kinds of life and created others.Also this is out of context with what Genesis 1 actually said when it uses the word " made" instead of " create" like the kind of life God made,when God made this life it said" after his kind" or" after its kind" this points to the kinds of life that perished in the former world clarifying the context but when God creates life it is new kind of life for this world.

Another example to back up things in Genesis pointing to the former world is the KJV translators telling both Adam and Eve and Noah and his family to replenish the earth,now I know that you'll say it means fill,but the KJV translators used the word " replenish" for a reason and this is two examples pointing to life in the former world.But why do you say the KJV translators were wrong? These men like William Tyndale were burned at the stake for translating the bible into English and it proves that the GT was known about long before 1859 when Charles Darwin published " On the origin of species". But you say they were wrong?I think it proves the GT was known about then and YEC was not the dominating creation theory at that time.YEC became popular in the 1970's when Henry Morris published " The Genesis flood". Also I'll have to find it but I recently heard about a bible scholar acknowledging the GT but I'll have to look for it and make sure.I have not been able to verify it yet.

You seem to be trusting people who agree with you and ignore the other scriptures I brought up.Does this come down to who we trust that agrees with us?I can give examples of when in the past the majority believed a certain interpretation only to be proven wrong as time went on,and it reveals that they were wrong,not the word of God.The bible is what we go on mostly,not mans interpretations and I have given the bible to back up the gap theory interpretation.I'll try to look into this more though as I want to make sure I'm right.
Does this person believe all things have gone on since the beginning of the creation?Nobody can teach or believe this and be biblically right.Do you ignore 2nd Peter 3:4? You cannot teach this world has gone on since the beginning of the creation and you do,this proves there was a break or a gap that people are ignorant about,nobody is ignorant about Noah's flood. and there was no break or gap in Noah's flood because Peter is not talking about Noah's flood,he is describing a much,much worse flood than Noah's flood.

And if you don't like the KJV translation of 2nd Peter 3:5-7 then you still cannot get around that you cannot teach all things have gone on since the beginning of the creation and if you go to Genesis 1? You'll see this world was created out of the water that flooded both the heavens and the earth that caused the former worldvto perish,this isvwhy God had to say " Let the dry land appear" in Genesis 1, this world was not created out of Noah's flood,so it makes no difference what modern translation we go by.

Also in the context of Isaiah 45 it contradicts your interpretation of Genesis 1:1,2 and 3 but you want to imply it was translated wrong? In order to justify your interpretation?Yes Isaiah 45 has to do with restoring Israel so why is it so hard to accept God restoring the heavens and the earth? Because this is why God brings it up,God is saying if I did this?I can restore Israel.You'll find God restoring things in the bible and yet you cannot fathom God restored the heavens and the earth from Genesis 1:3-31.

I will look more into your points but I can't ignore the many other scriptures I've brought up and nobody has the authority to claim 100% innerency on their interpretation.
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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