The Anti-Christ to defeat all believers?

[Kokujin]

So wait... there will be no rapture? So all of us are going to be alive when the beast comes or are you saying he already has come and died? Please explain to me in more literal terms, I have a hard time deciphering verses.

[waynes world]

I don't think Puritan Lad is sure at all whether there will be a rapture at the end of the tribulation or if it already has happened in 70 ad. His argument for the scripture I gave in Revelation 18:4 was that Jesus was talking about something that has already happened. But now he has changed his position again and is defending the post trib view and denying he ever believed in preterism. But his other posts have said the opposite. I think he will believe any view but the pre-trib view. The problem is that Rev 18:4 sure looks to me like we Christians will not suffer any of the plagues so its a pre-trib verse to me. "Then I heard another voice from heaven (Jesus) say, come out of her my people (us) so that you will not receive any of her plagues for her sins are piled up to heaven." If you look at the rest of the chapter the "her" is Babylon talked about in chapter 17. That is hardly any country that has already come and gone

[Kokujin]

Thank you for the explanation, a lot of prior posts were just confusing :S

Anyway, I have a feeling that we are indeed close to tribulation. Of course, I can't say that with certainty but we may all agree very soon. From what I have seen on the news and read in articles, it seems October might be a very eventful month. The real jump start into the end of times per se. I'm going out on a limb saying this aswell, because we all know I can't predict the future. But, I think this may really be it. I'll show you some of the information I have come across starting with this warning...

U.S. Still Unprepared For Al Qaeda Attacks
"Terrorists would not have much more difficulty attacking the U.S. today than they did before September 11, 2001,
says a former senior analyst of the Central Intelligence Agency. 'The reason it's going to occur is because we've
done nothing about our borders,' said Michael Scheuer, former head of the CIA's Osama bin Laden unit."

With that said, take a look at this.

Bin Laden plans for terrorist strikes next month

Al Qaeda's plans for a series of spectacular terrorist strikes in October, targeting American interests as well as U.S. allies in Europe and the Middle East and said to be coordinated by Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenant in Iraq - Abu Musab al-Zarqawi — are the subject of a non-public report issued by terrorism experts this week.

The attacks, planned to coincide with the Muslim observance of Ramadan and dubbed the “Great Ramadan Offensive,” are designed to create a “fateful confrontation” with the U.S. and Israeli forces in the Middle East, according to a May 30 letter from Zarqawi to bin Laden. The contents of the letter are referenced in the report written by Yossef Bodansky, the former director of the U.S. Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare.


An Aug. 8 televised message from bin Laden's overall second-in-command -- Ayman al-Zawahiri - is now viewed as the approval Zarqawi was anticipating. "What you have seen, O Americans, in New York and Washington and the losses you are having in Afghanistan and Iraq, in spite of all the media blackout, are only the losses of the initial clashes ... You will see the horror that will make you forget what you had seen in Vietnam," Zawahiri said

Widespread anticipation throughout the Muslim world of the “Great Ramadan Offensive” (The plan that starts it all) was being picked up by intelligence analysts in August and then was reinforced by a slew of theological statements -- all buttressing what the GIS report calls "a forthcoming, well-coordinated global onslaught."
He also suggested that the timing of Zawahiri's past video messages indicates a terrorist attack may be imminent
"If the pattern that has been outlined holds true," says Brown, "then al Qaeda is very likely about to launch a new major or series of major attacks within the next month."
Copley agreed, telling Cybercast News Service that, "I think Europe is going to be a prime target, but I think there's no question the U.S. is very much on the schedule.

Its not only this that makes me believe so, from multiple scources I have learned and have come to the conclusion that from October 1st 2005 -through- Starting Winter 2006 will be a significant time frame begining the end. Only time will tell though, so don't flip out. Just be prepared is all I can say. And although it doesn't seem terrorism may be directly related to the end of times, terrorists could potentially start events such as famin, serious economic rescission and once into it the fall of America. I suspect likewise, terrorist activity may bring about the anti-christ.

[waynes world]

Amen. bro! I have both a feeling of excitement and concern. I don't believe the secular world has any idea what kind of discipline the Lord has in store for them but it seems that their rejection of him is getting out of hand with the likes of Michael Newdow and the ACLU and the PFAW trying to remove religion from American life. I don't claim to have the mind of God or anything but I think what happened in New Orleans may have been a wake up call for us that we not turn his back on him any longer. There were plenty of things that Jesus warned us that would happen in Matt 24 that are happening before our very eyes, with earthquakes and flooding happening and thats just the beginning. The question is not when the rapture happens, we just don't know. The question is are we ready?

[puritan lad]

I don't think Puritan Lad is sure at all whether there will be a rapture at the end of the tribulation or if it already has happened in 70 ad. His argument for the scripture I gave in Revelation 18:4 was that Jesus was talking about something that has already happened. But now he has changed his position again and is defending the post trib view and denying he ever believed in preterism. But his other posts have said the opposite.

Wayne,

Why do you post lies? Why do you feel it necessary to make up things to support your arguments? Show me one post where I have "changed (my) position again and (am) defending the post trib view and denying (I) ever believed in preterism". I have been a preterist from the start.

This is the last time I will say this. I am a preterist. I do NOT believe in a 70 AD rapture. I do not believe in a future tribulation period.

If you want to have a fruitful debate, let's deal with the subject at hand and quit making stuff up. From here on out, I will only respond to posters who want an intelligent discussion of this issue. Thou shall not bear false witness.

[puritan lad]

So wait... there will be no rapture? So all of us are going to be alive when the beast comes or are you saying he already has come and died? Please explain to me in more literal terms, I have a hard time deciphering verses.

Kokujin,

The beast (Roman Emperor/Nero) has come and gone. When Christ returns, there will be a resurrection and a final judgment. No rapture, beast, or tribulation period. The Bible makes no mention of a third Jewish temple, Soviet Invasions of Israel, a European Union, killer bees, computer chips, Visa Cards, or any of the other stuff that passes for "Bible prophecy" these days.

[waynes world]

You don't know anything about the scriptures if you think that way. There will be plagues unlike anyone especially Nero had ever heard of. We who believe must be spared from them if Rev 18:4 is true. The Corinthians were preterists too and were corrected by Paul over that so that idea just isn't Biblical. My complaint isn't with your view at all but you can't make up your mind which view to have. You posted a sentence that you repeated several times that you weren't a preterist and now you say you are. You say its not a salvation issue, but you come across like we're saved by what view of the resurection we believe in and not by grace through faith. I do wish you would respect people who view differently than you do. Calling a disagreement a lie is not showing respect and I feel offended by your remarks. It shows insecurity to me.

[puritan lad]

Wayne,

I did not say you post lies because of your pre-trib view. The lies that you post are about my beliefs. For example,

You posted a sentence that you repeated several times that you weren't a preterist and now you say you are.

That is a lie. I never posted any sentence that said that I was not a preterist, much less several times. If I have, then I challenge to you like to it.

Thou shall not bear false witness.

[Kokujin]

Well puritan lad, I am trying to be open minded about your theories but they contradict virtually every other scource I have learned from. Are you the only one who truly knows how tribulation and rapture works and the rest of us are just wrong? I mean, my Grandpa (a very wise man) is a faithfull believer in christ and usually knows the answer to these questions, yet he agrees with the end of times being near. Its not only him that makes me lean that way, but also my entire family (thoes who believe) agree. I have also seen NUMORUS articals online (including the one on godandscience) depicting the rapture yet to occure. From what I understand, after tribulation isn't Jesus to rule the world for 1,000 years? How come if this is so, I haven't seen it happen? I may be missing something, but this is what I have read...

So suppose you are right, what is to happen in the world these days? And when DID the tribulation occure? Was it exactually 7 years and did the beast to exactually what was said he would do? I mean, I see war in the middle east... not a united land (which is what the anti-christ will do right?) Plus, when did the 2 prophets die and come back to life? "But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon thoes who were watching them" (Revelation 11:11) As far as I know, the only one to be raised from the dead is Jesus. Where was the 144,000? And when you say

No rapture, beast, or tribulation period.

Does that simply mean all 3 events have come and gone? Or are you just flat out denying Revelation?

[puritan lad]

Kokujin,

I am willing to discuss this doctrine, but I don't want to get into a personal name-calling match, so I hope that you are willing to put your doctrine to the test of scripture and scripture alone.

I never claimed to be the only one who knows about these things. I am what you call a preterist. While your view, called "premillennial dispensationalism", is currently the most popular view, it is also the newest. It was invented in the early 1800's by the Plymouth Brethren. (It is popular because of it's sensationalism, not because of it's sound exegesis.)

Regarding your questions.

The Rapture. The "rapture" (as currently defined) isn't found in the Bible. The "calling up" that is referred to in 1 Thess. 4:17 takes place AFTER the resurrection (verse 16), which takes place on the last day of history (Daniel 12:13, John 6:39, 40, 44), not before some tribulation period.

The Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation described the events that surrounded the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (See Matthew 24:1-3, 21) and was to happen withing the Apostle's generation (See Matthew 24:34). John was writing in the tribulation (Rev. 1:9), and described events that were to happen "shortly" (Rev. 1:1) and were "near" (Rev. 1:3).

The 1,000 year reign is a source of debate among preterist. I personally do not believe in a literal 1,000 year reign any more than I believe that God only owns the cattle on 1,000 hills (Psalm 50:10). He owns them all. Here is a great article on the "Millennial reign". http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/artic ... ticleID=94

The beast was Nero Caesar. Another good article. http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html

The "two prophets" in Revelation are identified as the two Olive Branches of Zech 14. They are no more literal than the beast. The represent the law and the gospel.

The Word "Antichrist" only appears 4 times in scripture, and never refers to a future world dictator.

The 144,000 represent the complete church, which was protected from the judgments against Jerusalem. Over 1 million Hebrews were killed, and not one of them was a Christian.

Hope this help get the ball rolling. Here is another good site with several articles.

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html

The Beast and the Tribulation have come and gone, and there is no rapture.

[waynes world]

Then Paul is lying in 1 Corinthinans 15 if there is no rapture! The Corinthians believed in the preterist view too. Thats not hardly a new position, the church believed it in the first century. You sound like someone who would offer no hope whatsoever for any Christian. Yet Titus 3:7 talks about the "blessed hope" which is the rapture. Not only is there a rapture but we who believe will not suffer the plagues which have not happened yet and I still want to know what kind of proof there is that they happened in 70ad? There is none because the rapture didn't happen then, nor did the judgment. It just makes no sense and its not biblical to believe the rapture hapened in 70ad. The word Generation can also mean race. Thats a fact. Plus a generation lasts 70 years and not 40 so its not possible for any rapture to happen in 70ad. The pre-trib view is the best way to understand Revelation. There was no beast in the 1st century because Israel wasn't a naton yet. That had to occur before any judgment comes. The Jews have to return to their homeland otherwise Ezekiel is lying. The exact opposite happened in 70ad. The Jews dispersed then. Tell me is there any hope at at all with you? It sure doesn't sound like there's any and if your view was correct and I was a non believer I would want no part of being a Christian.

[Believer]

Okay, puritan lad and waynes world, you both hold different beliefs. Puritan lad holds a preterist view, fine, it may be right, it may be wrong, who knows for 100% certainty. Waynes world, my local Portland, OR brother, you hold the traditional view, I do too. I certainly wouldn't want everything to be finalized in the preterism view giving off the notion that unbelievers have no second chance of repentance and accepting Christ. Some things may have happened, BUT, how do you know for 100% certainty puritan lad if you weren't there?

[Kokujin]

Well see, the main problem I have with Puritan's idea is that

"The Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation described the events that surrounded the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD"-puritan lad

Now, why would the tribulation occure BEFORE revelation was written? Revelation was written sometime between 90 AD and 96 AD. Even as the book starts "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to his bond-servants, the things which must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1) Why would the bible depict a great tribulation that must "soon take place" when it has already happend?

I'm sorry if I sound abrupt, but the bible is pretty much clearly as day telling me that Tribulation is to take place after 90 AD. Now, don't get me wrong. I have no wish to engage in a "personal name-calling match", It just seems to me that the answers are clearly written out here...

[puritan lad]

Thinker,

"traditional view"???? Preterism was around long before the "pre-trib" rapture. Ever read Augustine's "City of God"? Are you aware that the "pre-trib" rapture doctrine was invented in the early 1800's? Call it what you want, but your view is anything but traditional.

And the idea that there will be a chance to get saved after Christ's return has no scriptural support whatsoever.

[Deborah]

The anti Christ can only destroy the body, he can not destroy the soul because the soul belongs to God, what can the anti christ do?
Mat 10:28