Universals: Have they always existed?

[Kurieuo]

When it comes to the world, we understand concepts that are often called "universals"
-- universal concepts like shapes, numbers, math and the like.

With these clearly immaterial "things" one question to consider is whether such have always just existed;
OR, did these universal things come into existence at one point?

Picture that there was absolutely nothing - no physical world and no mind - just complete nothingness.
Would universals exist in such a world where there is no mind to conceive them?

To respond (1) "Yes, they would exist" - well, then how do they exist? Are we letting our mind's ability to conceive of them get in the way?
BUT, to respond (2) "No, they wouldn't exist" - well, why not? Even if 0 things actually exist, you still have a universal of nothingness, zero. Then 1 universal (math).

Evidently we have a hard time thinking that universals may have not always been around.
And yet, the nature of their existence seems to be heavily dependent upon a mind that can conceive of them.

Therefore, if universals like shapes, numbers and math have always existed and aren't bound by time, then so too a mind in which they have existence.

[Kenny]

When it comes to the world, we understand concepts that are often called "universals"
-- universal concepts like shapes, numbers, math and the like.

With these clearly immaterial "things" one question to consider is whether such have always just existed;
OR, did these universal things come into existence at one point?

Picture that there was absolutely nothing - no physical world and no mind - just complete nothingness.
Would universals exist in such a world where there is no mind to conceive them?

To respond (1) "Yes, they would exist" - well, then how do they exist? Are we letting our mind's ability to conceive of them get in the way?
BUT, to respond (2) "No, they wouldn't exist" - well, why not? Even if 0 things actually exist, you still have a universal of nothingness, zero. Then 1 universal (math).

Evidently we have a hard time thinking that universals may have not always been around.
And yet, the nature of their existence seems to be heavily dependent upon a mind that can conceive of them.

Therefore, if universals like shapes, numbers and math have always existed and aren't bound by time, then so too a mind in which they have existence.

I believe universal concepts like you described only exist in the context of human thought; they do not have an actual existence.

K

[Kurieuo]

So, if we had never existed, but assume the physical world did, roundness wouldn't be found anywhere?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Only God exists eternally. Ideas & things are the result of His creation.

FL

[RickD]

Aren't "things" like shapes, numbers, and math, concepts that exist to describe other things? If so, then they only exist as long as whatever it is they describe, exists.

So, I'd vote no. Only God has always been around.

[PaulSacramento]

When it comes to the world, we understand concepts that are often called "universals"
-- universal concepts like shapes, numbers, math and the like.

With these clearly immaterial "things" one question to consider is whether such have always just existed;
OR, did these universal things come into existence at one point?

Picture that there was absolutely nothing - no physical world and no mind - just complete nothingness.
Would universals exist in such a world where there is no mind to conceive them?

To respond (1) "Yes, they would exist" - well, then how do they exist? Are we letting our mind's ability to conceive of them get in the way?
BUT, to respond (2) "No, they wouldn't exist" - well, why not? Even if 0 things actually exist, you still have a universal of nothingness, zero. Then 1 universal (math).

Evidently we have a hard time thinking that universals may have not always been around.
And yet, the nature of their existence seems to be heavily dependent upon a mind that can conceive of them.

Therefore, if universals like shapes, numbers and math have always existed and aren't bound by time, then so too a mind in which they have existence.

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

Paul,

Could you expound on this a little more?

I'm interested in why you say that even if triangles didn't exist yet, that a triangle would still have 3 sides. I'm having trouble understanding how something that hasn't come into existence, actually has properties.

Thanks

[Kenny]

So, if we had never existed, but assume the physical world did, roundness wouldn't be found anywhere?

Without intelligent life, shapes would still exist; there just would not be a name for them

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

Paul,

Could you expound on this a little more?

I'm interested in why you say that even if triangles didn't exist yet, that a triangle would still have 3 sides. I'm having trouble understanding how something that hasn't come into existence, actually has properties.

Thanks

The concept of triangularity is that something, whether it exists or not, has 3 sides.
It's the essence of a triangle to be a 3 sided object.
Even if there were no triangle in existence the essence of what a triangle is ( a 3 sided object) would still be BUT only as an esscene or a concept and as such, it could only exist in a mind and for that, the mind would h ave to be eternal, in short, God.

[B. W.]

We human beings are in the unique position of being able to measure and explore the handiwork of God in creation. Our human perspective is only from that angle.

Sir Issac Newton believed the same that we can see existent evidence of God in creation and measure in math and science. Mathematics help us explore the evidence for God. So to say that shapes did not exist in a state of nothingness is logically sound, yet, shapes existing in the mind of God is sound before he created anything. We do not have the ability to pry into God's mystery of eternal self-existence but God did grant us the mind to measure the evidence of his existence and the grace to even disagree with the evidence we see.

So if there is evidence for the Universal, then it would be the Universal of Intelligence. So that we, with limited intelligence, can measure and explore the handiwork of God's intelligence used in his creation and thus uncover that one sure universal which is that God's intelligence exists. We can deny what our senses see, experience, and reason but even that proves this Universal that there is indeed intelligence midst the vast spaces of nothingness in the universe. The irony of the symbolism of this lost in human translation of the evidence.
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[RickD]

PaulS wrote:

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

Paul,

Could you expound on this a little more?

I'm interested in why you say that even if triangles didn't exist yet, that a triangle would still have 3 sides. I'm having trouble understanding how something that hasn't come into existence, actually has properties.

Thanks

The concept of triangularity is that something, whether it exists or not, has 3 sides.
It's the essence of a triangle to be a 3 sided object.
Even if there were no triangle in existence the essence of what a triangle is ( a 3 sided object) would still be BUT only as an esscene or a concept and as such, it could only exist in a mind and for that, the mind would h ave to be eternal, in short, God.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

Paul,

Could you expound on this a little more?

I'm interested in why you say that even if triangles didn't exist yet, that a triangle would still have 3 sides. I'm having trouble understanding how something that hasn't come into existence, actually has properties.

Thanks

The concept of triangularity is that something, whether it exists or not, has 3 sides.
It's the essence of a triangle to be a 3 sided object.
Even if there were no triangle in existence the essence of what a triangle is ( a 3 sided object) would still be BUT only as an esscene or a concept and as such, it could only exist in a mind and for that, the mind would h ave to be eternal, in short, God.

This is where we get the concept of the human soul being immortal.

Its not the universal objects exist and always have existed, its that certian concepts or essences exist regardless of whether any matertial form of them exist.
Which means these essences are immaterial and as such can only exist in "the mind" and since they have always existed as such ( a triangle has always been and always will be 3 sided) then they are eternal, which means the "mind" that holds them is eternal for they can not exist outside the mind.

[Kurieuo]

PaulS wrote:

The concepts have always existed in the "mind" of God, yes.
1+1 always has equaled 2 and a traingle has always had 3 sides.
Even if there were no triangles or never have been ( in material existences) that would not matter to the "essences" of triangularity.

Paul,

Could you expound on this a little more?

I'm interested in why you say that even if triangles didn't exist yet, that a triangle would still have 3 sides. I'm having trouble understanding how something that hasn't come into existence, actually has properties.

Thanks

The concept of triangularity is that something, whether it exists or not, has 3 sides.
It's the essence of a triangle to be a 3 sided object.
Even if there were no triangle in existence the essence of what a triangle is ( a 3 sided object) would still be BUT only as an esscene or a concept and as such, it could only exist in a mind and for that, the mind would h ave to be eternal, in short, God.

This is where we get the concept of the human soul being immortal.

Its not the universal objects exist and always have existed, its that certian concepts or essences exist regardless of whether any matertial form of them exist.
Which means these essences are immaterial and as such can only exist in "the mind" and since they have always existed as such ( a triangle has always been and always will be 3 sided) then they are eternal, which means the "mind" that holds them is eternal for they can not exist outside the mind.

You appear to mirror my own thoughts on the matter Paul.

It is interesting that the form of universals actually appear to beg for the existence of a mind.
So I believe the concept of triangularity has always existed, along with the math associated with such. If not in matter or substance, then in form or essence.
Something within me finds it absurd to think they never existed, but it seems clear to me that their conceptual form only exists contingently upon a mind who can conceive such.

Since it is logically conceivable to think of the material world and all in it not existing, then what then of universals?
Surely they exist in form or essense. It boggles my mind to think 1+1 in any possible scenario would not have the answer 2.
And yet, again, these universal concepts can only exist if a mind can comprehend such.

Therefore while they do not and cannot logically preceed the existence of a consciousness mind (i.e., God), they are dependant upon such in order to exist and then be materialised.
And as such, this for me has become another powerful argument for God's existence.

[Kurieuo]

Only God exists eternally. Ideas & things are the result of His creation.

FL

Is it possible for something to have always existed that was also created (dependant) upon God himself for their existence?
This is a main point that Jac and Byblos sometimes try and highlight when someone mentions the Kalam cosmological argument.
Something could exist forever (e.g., universe/multiverse), but still be ordered upon - contingent upon - the existence of something else (i.e., God).

[Kurieuo]

So, if we had never existed, but assume the physical world did, roundness wouldn't be found anywhere?

Without intelligent life, shapes would still exist; there just would not be a name for them

Ken

I'd agree with your thought.

Given your obvious commitment to materialism,
does it similarly seem logical to you that the Sydney Opera House (or some other significant building structure) came into existence without any blueprints and mind to conceive them?

We see the logical structure in the world as being once of mind -> form -> materialisation.
You will likely disagree, but so too I think this same pattern is evident in universals like triangularity -> pyramids.