Prayer and working with God

[Mallz]

Question:
It's undeniable that in the Bible we are not only encouraged but expected as Sons and Daughters of Elohim to pray for the salvation of others.
Elohim knows who will come to Him and who will not.
What do our prayers for others matter? What do we have to do with it?
The only answer I can think of is for the purpose to build a closer relationship and be in communion with Jesus, Abba Elohim and the Holy Spirit. But that would only be one piece of the puzzle, for you can pray for others but never realize the potential for relationship as Brother, Son and Student to Elohim. There are other things that need to be understood and revealed to look at the answer to my question this way. Which leads me to believe I'm missing something and my original answer is really just one of many natural results of the original intention which escapes my wisdom.
Enlighten me?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

What do our prayers for others matter? What do we have to do with it?

See Matthew 7:7, 8. God gives all of us things we don't need to ask for: health, sunshine, crops, and so on.. Some of the things He gives us come as a result of prayer because He's determined that we will only get them if we ask for them. Lastly, some things are refused to us even if we pray.

FL

[Mallz]

Mallz wrote:
What do we have to do with it?

See Matthew 7:7, 8. God gives all of us things we don't need to ask for: health, sunshine, crops, and so on.. Some of the things He gives us come as a result of prayer because He's determined that we will only get them if we ask for them. Lastly, some things are refused to us even if we pray.

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened

True, but how do our prayers effect the choice of others and the calling of Elohim? One is affected by life circumstances and all that entails. We are apart of that. But through physical interaction. How does our spiritual communion effect this interaction? If it does, does it not in some way effect Elohim. As if humans could fulfill a need of Elohim?! Or effect Him? I remember in the Old Testament Elohim 'changed' His mind because of the prayers of the righteous. But He knew that would happen before it did. So He didn't really 'change' His mind, just by our temporal mortal perspective we could think that. So I'm still wondering.. our desires of others salvation, how does that spiritually work? Why is it something we do? As if we would effect Elohim and what He does as He pleases. And He knows what will happen anyways and based off of His character we Know it will be the definition of justice love mercy and all that Elohim entails. So... whats up?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

True, but how do our prayers effect the choice of others and the calling of Elohim? One is affected by life circumstances and all that entails. We are apart of that. But through physical interaction. How does our spiritual communion effect this interaction? If it does, does it not in some way effect Elohim. As if humans could fulfill a need of Elohim?! Or effect Him? I remember in the Old Testament Elohim 'changed' His mind because of the prayers of the righteous. But He knew that would happen before it did. So He didn't really 'change' His mind, just by our temporal mortal perspective we could think that. So I'm still wondering.. our desires of others salvation, how does that spiritually work? Why is it something we do? As if we would effect Elohim and what He does as He pleases. And He knows what will happen anyways and based off of His character we Know it will be the definition of justice love mercy and all that Elohim entails. So... whats up?

Before I answer, why do you keep referring to God as Elohim? A detailed answer would be appreciated.

FL

[EssentialSacrifice]

Matthew 5:43-45

He says here to pray for those who persecute you, so you may be the sons of your Father in heaven. I think it has something to do with that. Prayer, for loved ones, enemies, others in trouble you may or may not know... seems God loves the fact that we love one another... if we do ... and perhaps the best, most sincere form of showing that love is prayer from the heart that certainly has to do with the one being prayed for, but also, and in perhaps a more distinct yet subtle way of proof you are doing the right thing, for all the right reasons, to become the sons (and daughters) of God.

Prayer is definitely a two way street with optimal benefits for all parties involved, no matter the final outcome of any one participant.

[Mallz]

Before I answer, why do you keep referring to God as Elohim? A detailed answer would be appreciated.

I don't prefer using the term God because of how generic it is and I don't like the roots of the word. My preference is to use one of the names He's revealed of Himself which is Elohim (addressing God, the Trinity, wholly). But I'll use the generic term God to refer to Elohim only because that is what people are familiar with. But while talking to brothers and sisters I'll keep my style and preferences intact as well as using a name He calls Himself instead of the diluted title god. Using one of His names is specific and flows much better in my head depending on who in the Trinity I'm addressing or All One of Him.

seems God loves the fact that we love one another

So, you're thinking it has to do with heart training and our relationship with Him? So, the effect of our prayers for others is pointless to them and only beneficiary to us and Him? Because Elohim, based off knowing some of His attributes is already going to give everyone a loving, just chance to come to Him despite any created beings desires or hopes. I can't help but feel there's more to it..?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

True, but how do our prayers effect the choice of others and the calling of Elohim?

The answer to this question - and those that follow from it is simple: God simply speaks the change into existence. If you are looking for a technical answer, there is none. God simply spoke the everything we see in the night sky into existence. When Jesus fed thousands of people with scraps, He spoke the feast into existence. Lazarus was raised from the dead by being called to come out of the tomb...and so on. The Bible is filled with such stories.

If you are looking for a technical explanation, you'll have to resort to wild speculation.

As for "Elohim", it is simply the word for God in Hebrew. God's name isn't Elohim. His personal name is YHWH or, in English, Jehovah.

FL

[EssentialSacrifice]

I can't help but feel there's more to it..?

I feel this way almost every time I come away with a new "insight" to His universe. It's a crazy thing to try to get in to the head of God, but that's what this "feeling like there's more" is doing. There are those who simply will not accept God's will. Will reject His every overture for His love for them. I have no answer for their actions and, in fact, am at a complete loss as to their motives and reasoning. I've been no help at all, I'm sorry. I do believe you are absolutely correct, there is more, but if the best I can do is love Him above all else and my brother as my self...and keep both constantly in my prayers, most everything else there is, is above my pay grade.... Sorry.

[Mallz]

If you are looking for a technical explanation, you'll have to resort to wild speculation.

Perhaps

As for "Elohim", it is simply the word for God in Hebrew. God's name isn't Elohim. His personal name is YHWH or, in English, Jehovah.

Elohim is the word for God in Hewbrew and is unique in its own context and origin vs the other ancient religions concept of gods of the time and was specific about describing YHWH. Words become interchangeable as time goes by only because of lazy use throughout societies. There are different names used in different places throughout scripture and all those names have been changed to God. You lose out on who in the Godhead or the complete Godhead is speaking, or which title of God being used which is lost context when generalized. Jehovah roots come from Jupiter farther down the line satan. I have the same belief about the term God but that one is going to be too hard to not use otherwise people will just be confused about what you're trying to say since the average mind is relativistic.

I feel this way almost every time I come away with a new "insight" to His universe. It's a crazy thing to try to get in to the head of God, but that's what this "feeling like there's more" is doing. There are those who simply will not accept God's will. Will reject His every overture for His love for them. I have no answer for their actions and, in fact, am at a complete loss as to their motives and reasoning. I've been no help at all, I'm sorry. I do believe you are absolutely correct, there is more, but if the best I can do is love Him above all else and my brother as my self...and keep both constantly in my prayers, most everything else there is, is above my pay grade.... Image Sorry.

No, your responses were helpful. Thanks!

[Jac3510]

see pages 75 and 76 of my book on divine simplicity

[B. W.]

Question:
It's undeniable that in the Bible we are not only encouraged but expected as Sons and Daughters of Elohim to pray for the salvation of others.
Elohim knows who will come to Him and who will not.

What do our prayers for others matter? What do we have to do with it?

The only answer I can think of is for the purpose to build a closer relationship and be in communion with Jesus, Abba Elohim and the Holy Spirit. But that would only be one piece of the puzzle, for you can pray for others but never realize the potential for relationship as Brother, Son and Student to Elohim. There are other things that need to be understood and revealed to look at the answer to my question this way. Which leads me to believe I'm missing something and my original answer is really just one of many natural results of the original intention which escapes my wisdom.

Enlighten me?

What you are addressing is summed up best in the Hyper Calvinist effect of killing the need for prayer found in their brand of theology. Even regular Calvinist reject the Hyper Calvinist extreme idea of God's sovereignty. Google - Hyper Calvinist on prayer -- and you will see what I mean. The Hyper Calvinist extreme idea of God's sovereignty kills off the need to pray, yet, Jesus teaches that we should pray and that we are to pray for all manner of people. Who do we trust?

The answer is ridiculously simple, God desires to work with you, hand in hand in such matters you mentioned because he loves his people who love him and seek after him. Prayer builds our faith and our faith is energized God's love. Jesus said to take his yoke upon yourself and learn to lean on him. He tag teams with his people to get things he wants done. Interesting thing about the Lord Most High - Elyon - he is big on relationships and building an 'echad' - unity, reconciling back to that unity: see this verse as an example:

2 Corinthians 5:18 NASB, "Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation"

John 17 is a prayer for Echad so God desires to work with his people to carry out his will - think of it for a moment at the implications of this - thru prayer we discover how his Love works and how his agendas are carried thru, we become united to Him, and we learn that He is real.We learn that His yes is yes and no is no. Prayer builds our character to trust the Lord more and brings us closer to him.

Life without prayer is life without God...

Pray without ceasing.
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[Mallz]

Jac,
Did you expound on that section since the first day you posted the book? I don't remember reading everything there now..
I found the explanation of humanities relationship with Elohim helpful how it was written out.

B.W.
Thanks, I think I was slipping Hyper Calvinist theology into my thinking without realizing, just the 'hyper sovereignty' thinking.


Things are becoming clear, like swimming up from a murky lake to a warm blue sky. I think my biggest problem is that I can understand and feel something, but don't have all the background knowledge to know if I'm doing it right. If that makes sense? I trust Him, but not myself. But am starting to trust myself and I think that is necessary if I'm going to work in unity with Him to a fuller extent...
Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out ^_^

[Jac3510]

Glad you found it helpful, Mallz. I think it was there from the first, but it wouldn't surprise me if you missed it. It was something of a passing comment with respect to the overarching point of the chapter. And besides, I covered lots of ground in that hundred pages. You can't be expected to remember everything!

[Philip]

And besides, I covered lots of ground in that hundred pages. You can't be expected to remember everything!

Yep, some soldiers use a machine gun, Jac prefers a keyboard - with perhaps a bit less output per second, but just as deadly, nonetheless!