Progressive creation vs Theistic evolution

[Audie]

So how do you believe what you believe?

I'm not sure it's a conscious decision anyway. I think you just go with what makes the most sense to you and what feels right. I may never decide on any of the beliefs but it would be nice to at least have a framework to refer to. It gets a tad monotonous (?) just saying I believe in God and that Christ is my salvation. I want to flesh it out a bit.

I want to understand.

And a lot of things are counterintuitive in math and science. So a person doesnt want to rely too much on feelings and what appears to make sense.

The framework to refer to is what one gets by study, obviously.


Deciding what one believes...
I know that my Mom loves me. I love her. We dont talk about it, we show it by our actions.

How do you think I came to believe what I believe in that regard?
I could no more just "decide" she loves me than I could choose or decide to think she doesnt. I could say it, but it wont be real.

No more than "deciding" that yes, water is wet, or that it is not.

Why do you believe in the feeling of love but you say it doesnt make sense to rely on feelings?
How can you study feelings?
We live by what we feel so what better way to decide to believe?

Render unto Caesar. Feelings are for love, not for math.

[Storyteller]

And God isn't math.

He is love.

So you cant prove God only feel Him.

[Audie]

And God isn't math.

He is love.

So you cant prove God only feel Him.

Which I do not, and its not for me to choose to pretend I do.

[Jac3510]

So you cant prove God

Of course you can. The existence of God is an article of reason, not of faith.

only feel Him.

With which of the senses? You no more or no less "feel God" than you feel a pin prick or a summer breeze. There are certain "spiritual experiences" you may have that you (rightly or wrongly) attribute to Him, but let's not say that you feel Him and certainly not that feeling Him is how you know He exists. On the contrary, long before one can experience God as you are talking about, you must first know and believe that He is.

[Proinsias]

only feel Him.

With which of the senses? You no more or no less "feel God" than you feel a pin prick or a summer breeze. There are certain "spiritual experiences" you may have that you (rightly or wrongly) attribute to Him, but let's not say that you feel Him and certainly not that feeling Him is how you know He exists. On the contrary, long before one can experience God as you are talking about, you must first know and believe that He is.

Is this not contrary to a great deal of personal experiences from St Paul through to B.W? often the experiential comes first and then personal convictions are rationalized in hindsight.

[Jac3510]

I can't speak for BW. Paul was already a committed theist. To suggest he was anything like an atheist would be absurd. Furthermore, I'm not saying God can't come to the most dedicated atheist and reveal Himself gloriously. I am saying, however, and I hold to the fact, the normal process of things (and the biblical process of things) is that we know God exists first and then we experience Him. In more theological jargon, we respond to the revelation He has already granted and in doing so He gives us more.

Of course, once you get past the starting line, experience and reason work together (not necessarily, as you (intentionally?) suggest as the latter being subjugated by the former), such that our experience gives us new data, new premises, to reason from, to compare with what we already know, etc. So once God is accepted, it is certainly possible to "feel" Him and, from there, more readily see the truths of His existence. Perhaps something like that was behind BW's experience.

But, again, the fact remains, that God's existence is a matter of reason, not of blind faith; it is something we know, not merely something we feel, and to relegate the knowledge of God to a personal convinction held absent of justification is certainly better than atheism (or agnosticism, or deism, or polytheism, or pantheism), but it's far from the biblical standard of a warranted faith in a reasonable God.

[Storyteller]

So you cant prove God

Of course you can. The existence of God is an article of reason, not of faith.

only feel Him.

With which of the senses? You no more or no less "feel God" than you feel a pin prick or a summer breeze. There are certain "spiritual experiences" you may have that you (rightly or wrongly) attribute to Him, but let's not say that you feel Him and certainly not that feeling Him is how you know He exists. On the contrary, long before one can experience God as you are talking about, you must first know and believe that He is.

I felt Him jac.
A real, physical presence. I was praying, and He was there, next to me.
And I have always known and believed that he is.

[Storyteller]

And I totally disagree with the last sentence. It has nothing to do with how long youve known and believed.

[Storyteller]

I can't speak for BW. Paul was already a committed theist. To suggest he was anything like an atheist would be absurd. Furthermore, I'm not saying God can't come to the most dedicated atheist and reveal Himself gloriously. I am saying, however, and I hold to the fact, the normal process of things (and the biblical process of things) is that we know God exists first and then we experience Him. In more theological jargon, we respond to the revelation He has already granted and in doing so He gives us more.

Of course, once you get past the starting line, experience and reason work together (not necessarily, as you (intentionally?) suggest as the latter being subjugated by the former), such that our experience gives us new data, new premises, to reason from, to compare with what we already know, etc. So once God is accepted, it is certainly possible to "feel" Him and, from there, more readily see the truths of His existence. Perhaps something like that was behind BW's experience.

But, again, the fact remains, that God's existence is a matter of reason, not of blind faith; it is something we know, not merely something we feel, and to relegate the knowledge of God to a personal convinction held absent of justification is certainly better than atheism (or agnosticism, or deism, or polytheism, or pantheism), but it's far from the biblical standard of a warranted faith in a reasonable God.

I dont disagree with that. I never said it was just down to feeling.

[Jac3510]

If you've always known and believed in Him, then feeling His presence isn't what proved He exists to you. And if that is what proved it, if you were a staunch atheist and then had this amazing spiritual experience, then good for you. You are the exception rather than the rule. But I expect that you aren't the exception, and so I just go back to my previous comments. You ought not tell people that God cannot be proven but only felt. That's just untrue, and all of us (starting with me), need to be very careful when we make claims about God (cf Job 42:7).

[PaulSacramento]

So, you can decide that the sun is purple. Fits the definition.

The key word is "believe". "Decide" does not always apply to "believe".
Sometimes I do decide to believe. Do you always make a conscious choice, tho?


Notice how often the word "faith" occurs. "Opinion" and "suppose" are in there too.


be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb
1.
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
synonyms: be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful More
accept the statement of (someone) as true.
"he didn't believe her or didn't want to know"
have faith, especially religious faith.
"there are those on the fringes of the Church who do not really believe"
feel sure that (someone) is capable of a particular action.
"I wouldn't have believed it of Lois—what an extraordinary woman!"
2.
hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.

Audie, you said that you can't decide to believe something, that you are not "made" that way ( I am paraphrasing).
My point is that we, all of us, all humans, always decide what to believe, it is only the process of how we decide that may defer and any given moment.

[Kenny]

So, you can decide that the sun is purple. Fits the definition.

The key word is "believe". "Decide" does not always apply to "believe".
Sometimes I do decide to believe. Do you always make a conscious choice, tho?


Notice how often the word "faith" occurs. "Opinion" and "suppose" are in there too.


be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb
1.
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
synonyms: be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful More
accept the statement of (someone) as true.
"he didn't believe her or didn't want to know"
have faith, especially religious faith.
"there are those on the fringes of the Church who do not really believe"
feel sure that (someone) is capable of a particular action.
"I wouldn't have believed it of Lois—what an extraordinary woman!"
2.
hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.

Audie, you said that you can't decide to believe something, that you are not "made" that way ( I am paraphrasing).
My point is that we, all of us, all humans, always decide what to believe, it is only the process of how we decide that may defer and any given moment.

I think I am going to have to go with Audie on this one. I am reminded of a saying; Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; never before. I believe that applies to me. Not only am I unable to convince myself of a lie, I don't believe I am capable of convincing myself of something I do not know is true or not. I may be able to put on a pretty good show, and convince everyone around me I believe something is true, but at the end of the day, I would be unable to convince myself. In order for me to believe, I have to become convinced.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

We are not talking about belief, we are talking about deciding what to believe and how.
Everything we do involved making a decision.
You decided that: I don't believe I am capable of convincing myself of something I do not know is true or not.
Great, I don't know of anyone that CAN convince themselves of something they KNOW is not true.
You said:
I am reminded of a saying; Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; never before

What makes that view a view that you follow or agree?
You decided that you agree with that view, that's what makes it a view that you agree with.

When a person says that they can't just decide to believe in something that are making a statement that they DECIDED to make.
They decided to believe that they can't decided to believe, see the paradox and silliness of that statement?

Every choice we make, whether to believe or not for example, is a decision we make.

[RickD]

Paul,

You are trying to explain basic multiplication to someone who can't even understand that 1+1=2. It's futile.

[Audie]

Let us know if you can decide to believe in astrology.