Is secularism spreading?

[Audie]

Please tell me who this statement below refers to and how inclusive it is of that group. The topic was "secularists". I dont think it was just a comment tossed off, a general statement about everyone like "people dont like cold prickly things".

People don't like rules and things that they feel infringe on their right to do whatever they want to feel good.

It was a general statement on people in general and secularists in particular in the broad sense that secularists are people ( it also applies to religious people of course).

Also specify how you know this is true of people in said group any more than it might be of the general population.

See above.

Do you think the fine points of whether or not this fully matches some definition of bigotry gets the speaker out of any negative evaluation of such a statement?

Bigotry is the INTOLERANCE of a person of a view point, typically without justification.
The comment above is not a biogot-like comment at all, surely you can see that a comment doesn't speak of tolerance ( or the lack thereof) can't be a bigoted comment?

Regarding homosexual activity, btw, one of my very close acquaintances was so damaged by abuse at the hands of a man that sex with a man is difficult to impossible.
Are you intolerant of her seeking sexual companionship with another woman?

First off, IF the reason she is looking for sexual comfort from a woman is because of abuse at the hands of a man, then her issues are far reaching and she needs to seek professional help.
She is not a homosexual.
Second, IF you had read what I actually wrote you would have understood that being intolerant of an activity does NOT equate of being intolerant of people OR their rights to peruse any activity that does NOT harm themselves or others ( putting aside the issue of whether homosexuality is harmful or not).

Of course, by your view, anyone that is intolerant of rape, for example, is a bigot also.
Anyone intolerant of anything is a bigot it seems.

And since, in your own words you are intolerant of religion:

If the kind of crazy ideas I see talked about in any way represent an effect that religion has on people, I want no part in it.

That makes you a bigot.

So why did you mention #1 in bold if its just a completely general observation about people in general, in a thread about now awful them secularists are?

It seemed pretty obvious who you were talking about.

#2 unjustified if its about "secularists"

#3 see,s off down a rabbit hole of definitions.

#4 is you making up nonsense about me.

#5 grown ups usually dont do the "Im rubber and you are glue" defense.

[PaulSacramento]

How did this get to "how awful secularists are" and when did I make up nonsense about you?

I just showed you that be how YOU are using the term bigot that YOU can be defined as one by your very own standard.

[Audie]

How did this get to "how awful secularists are" and when did I make up nonsense about you?

I just showed you that be how YOU are using the term bigot that YOU can be defined as one by your very own standard.

the thread started like this.

In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh!

The thing you said about the range of things I'd consider bigotry is nonsense.

but then as you made up the "standards" Im sure you can fit me into them.

[PaulSacramento]

No Audie, you made the standard, I just pointed out that to your very OWN standard, what you said about religion makes you a bigot towards religion.

And the comment of:
In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh

Was obviously an expression of frustration and sadness, not intolerance or bigotry.
He was referring to His own family.

Look at the WHOLE sentence:

In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh!
I have to put God away and keep Jesus out of conversations and such or else they will become offended

Note that he says THEY will become offended.

[Audie]

No Audie, you made the standard, I just pointed out that to your very OWN standard, what you said about religion makes you a bigot towards religion.

And the comment of:
In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh

Was obviously an expression of frustration and sadness, not intolerance or bigotry.
He was referring to His own family.

Look at the WHOLE sentence:

In fact my two siblings and my mother are now self proclaimed atheists. Ugh!
I have to put God away and keep Jesus out of conversations and such or else they will become offended

Note that he says THEY will become offended.

I didnt say there was any bigotry in there, maybe there is maybe there is not.

IF what you said really was just a random comment about people in general, and had zero to do with "secularists" as such, fine. Appearances can be deceiving. Any comment on bigotry and you is hereby retracted and apologized for. IF.


But IF so,,
I'm glad to hear that you are better in that way, than the ones yukking it up in the "atheist faith" thread.

[PaulSacramento]

Audie, we offend each other all the time ( people do) because while WE KNOW what WE MEAN when we say something, others reading/hearing it don't.
It's human nature to dislike hearing a negative remark that MAY apply to us, even if we KNOW it doesn't.
We have to be careful when we use certain words, even though words in of themselves hurt no one. Words mean what they mean.
To call someone bigot is like calling someone a racists or worse.
Disagreement and intolerance are two very different things.
Not tolerating an opinion or ideology is very different from not tolerating a person or a people or the rights of those people to express that opinion.

But back on topic:

I do believe that one of the reasons that secularism is spreading is because people IN GENERAL do not like being told what to do, especially if it is something they want to or feel like it gives them pleasure.

EX:
I know a person who used to be a Christian ( a JW as a matter of fact).
They are not atheist and, I quote:
"Never have I been more free to do what I want"...
He got divorced, left his family, shacked up with a woman of questionable morals and last I heard, lost his job and started using drugs.

Now, I am not saying that happens to everyone of course, some people actually become BETTER people when they leave an oppressing religion.
My point is that people seeking to be "free" to do what they want is A reason for people leaving religion.

[Audie]

Audie, we offend each other all the time ( people do) because while WE KNOW what WE MEAN when we say something, others reading/hearing it don't.
It's human nature to dislike hearing a negative remark that MAY apply to us, even if we KNOW it doesn't.

true. But I like you anyway.

We have to be careful when we use certain words, even though words in of themselves hurt no one. Words mean what they mean.
To call someone bigot is like calling someone a racists or worse.
Disagreement and intolerance are two very different things.
Not tolerating an opinion or ideology is very different from not tolerating a person or a people or the rights of those people to express that opinion.

IF you meant "secularists" not people in general I would with regret think I got it right.
But as I said, it was mild compared to what I saw going on in that atheist faith thing.

But back on topic:

I do believe that one of the reasons that secularism is spreading is because people IN GENERAL do not like being told what to do, especially if it is something they want to or feel like it gives them pleasure.

Lots of things are possible. "Secularism" one of those words that tend to flex with the person saying them. some make it most a cuss word. To me, its not an ism anyway, its just not shaping policy and etc around a religion.

EX:
I know a person who used to be a Christian ( a JW as a matter of fact).
They are not atheist and, I quote:
"Never have I been more free to do what I want"...

Well, I dont know the rules of JW.

He got divorced, left his family, shacked up with a woman of questionable morals and last I heard, lost his job and started using drugs.

That aint 'secularism" that is going off the rails.

Now, I am not saying that happens to everyone of course, some people actually become BETTER people when they leave an oppressing religion.

Or when they join one.

My point is that people seeking to be "free" to do what they want is A reason for people leaving religion.

it could well be.

People also join so that they can feel they are better than others.

[PaulSacramento]

One of the worse qualities that a Christian can have is the belief that they are somehow better than anyone else simply because they are Christian.
It flies in face of the core tenets of Christianity that ALL are "wicked" and NONE are righteous.
No one is better than anyone else and that is the first thing you learn when you become a Christian.

Our Faith and Hope is in what Christ has done for us because we KNOW that NOTHING we DO is deserving of such love because we are NOT "good people".

Humanity is broken, fallen.
Humans are cruel and manipulative, they are angry and self-centered and self- righteous.
The only time humans even come close to their potential is when there is suffering involved.
Look at Nepal right now and by contrast Baltimore.

Audie, the one thing that Christians SHOULD know is that we are most certainly NOT better than anyone else.

[Audie]

One of the worse qualities that a Christian can have is the belief that they are somehow better than anyone else simply because they are Christian.
It flies in face of the core tenets of Christianity that ALL are "wicked" and NONE are righteous.
No one is better than anyone else and that is the first thing you learn when you become a Christian.

I know. and of course, church is only one good place to learn that.

Our Faith and Hope is in what Christ has done for us because we KNOW that NOTHING we DO is deserving of such love because we are NOT "good people".

Humanity is broken, fallen.

I dont go with the "fallen" stuff, but people are onery critters, for sure.

Humans are cruel and manipulative, they are angry and self-centered and self- righteous.
The only time humans even come close to their potential is when there is suffering involved.
Look at Nepal right now and by contrast Baltimore.

Audie, the one thing that Christians SHOULD know is that we are most certainly NOT better than anyone else

I knew we could agree in substance on something.

.

[PaulSacramento]

I dont go with the "fallen" stuff, but people are onery critters, for sure.

Would you prefer that humans have issues?
The term isn't really important, fallen, broken, sick, have issues, need work, whatever.
The point is that there is something wrong with humans, something that needs fixing.

[Audie]

I dont go with the "fallen" stuff, but people are onery critters, for sure.

Would you prefer that humans have issues?
The term isn't really important, fallen, broken, sick, have issues, need work, whatever.
The point is that there is something wrong with humans, something that needs fixing.

a lot of things need fixing. I like to believe that if people dont exterminate themselves, that in a few thousand, or million years if it takes that long, people will be civilized and live up to their potential.

[PaulSacramento]

I dont go with the "fallen" stuff, but people are onery critters, for sure.

Would you prefer that humans have issues?
The term isn't really important, fallen, broken, sick, have issues, need work, whatever.
The point is that there is something wrong with humans, something that needs fixing.

a lot of things need fixing. I like to believe that if people dont exterminate themselves, that in a few thousand, or million years if it takes that long, people will be civilized and live up to their potential.

Well, considering that the further a long we go, the worse we get...not sure if that is gonna work.
BUT I appreciate your faith in humanity.

[Audie]

I dont go with the "fallen" stuff, but people are onery critters, for sure.

Would you prefer that humans have issues?
The term isn't really important, fallen, broken, sick, have issues, need work, whatever.
The point is that there is something wrong with humans, something that needs fixing.

a lot of things need fixing. I like to believe that if people dont exterminate themselves, that in a few thousand, or million years if it takes that long, people will be civilized and live up to their potential.

Well, considering that the further a long we go, the worse we get...not sure if that is gonna work.
BUT I appreciate your faith in humanity.

I dont agree with the "worse". Not in all ways, for sure. For one thing, now there is me.

[1over137]

Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

[RickD]

Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

She's Chinese...she will.