Questions from an agnostic

[Anonymous]

Hello there,

i recently stumbled across this site while doing a search on google. since i'm here i'd like to take the time to tell you about my self. i'm 18 and currently attending college. the reason i'm here is because i'm very skeptical about alot of things concerning the bible, 'god', life and death. i was raised in a normal household and taught traditional christian values all of my life. at certain times in my life i had questioned my faith because i didnt have enough proof to support my beliefs. whenever i would ask a family member a difficult question, such as "who created god?", they would simply respond "i dont know, i have faith and thats all i need". for a while, it worked for me and i continued to have faith. but it didnt last for long because i had so many unanswered questions.

it wasn't untill last year that i serioulsy began to look for answers. as i attended science class every day in high school, i had to learn about darwins theory because we base all of our work off of that theory. in order to do my work, you had to know about the theory of evolution and the big bang. the more i began to read, the less i began to believe in christ. it wasnt long before i began to loose my faith. i went trough a long period of depression and anxiety because i was looking for answerws that i couldnt find. i wanted to belive in something(the bible) but outside sources where conflicting with my beliefs. over time, i leaned more towards darwins theory. i started to question the meaning of life and what happens when we die. i just couldnt accept dying and never being able to see my loved ones again.

one day i was watching tv and i came across a christian channel and i saw a program with doctor kent hovind. he was explaining the vast flaws in darwins theory and i was amazed by what i saw! after seeing it the first time, i tuned in every thursday night to watch the program. it greatly increased my faith for a short period of time. eventually i started to believe again but something was still missing. i didnt feel like i had a personaly relationship with this supposed creator. i fell back into my current beliefs because i feel that it's easier and more acceptable in society. as of right now, i dont believe or dissbelieve in god. i just dont know what to do. a part of me wants to believe in something but i feel that if i do believe, it will limit my knowledge and i dont want to be closed minded. therefore, i cant be a christian or atheist.

the other day my mother asked me to go to church with her and i told her no. when she asked me why, i told her that i dont believe in god and it's not necessary for me to go to church. she told me that one day i wont have anything but faith. for her, faith alone seems to get her through hardships but it's not enough for me. she allways thought that i "believed in and knew god personally". the truth is, i dont. being agnostic gives me a sense of open mindedness, yet it gives me a sense of insecurity. i'm a deep thinker and if i belive solely in the bible, i can't accept other theorys but if i do, i have an identity and a true purpose. my question to you is, how do i really find god? if there is a god, how do find him and have a personaly relationship with him?

[Kurieuo]

Hi Joey,

I feel for you that the Church wasn't able to provide you with the information you needed, but at least you appear to be fixing that. I just hope you haven't already consciously tossed Christianity on the heap because you were unable to satisfy your doubts. It is sad that there has been much anti-intellectualism amongst Christians over the last century or so. I do however feel this is gradually changing. Faith for me is something built upon reason, and not a blind acceptance, and I strongly believe this is what the Bible encourages and teaches. I actually came across a page the other day, which reveals just how much this is so (see http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/outlines ... logic.html).

i recently stumbled across this site while doing a search on google. since i'm here i'd like to take the time to tell you about my self. i'm 18 and currently attending college. the reason i'm here is because i'm very skeptical about alot of things concerning the bible, 'god', life and death. i was raised in a normal household and taught traditional christian values all of my life. at certain times in my life i had questioned my faith because i didnt have enough proof to support my beliefs. whenever i would ask a family member a difficult question, such as "who created god?", they would simply respond "i dont know, i have faith and thats all i need". for a while, it worked for me and i continued to have faith. but it didnt last for long because i had so many unanswered questions.

I remember at about your same age, I began having an "awakening" to the Christianity I was brought up with. I had been out of home for about a year, and it was like my rational mind just started to kick in with a desire for reason. Perhaps something within me felt a need to structure my own life and sort through my beliefs. Why did I believe what I had come to believe? Was there any justification for what I believed? I never really had to battle against objections by others against Christianity, but my own personal doubts began to arise. It was at this point I remember quite clearly saying a prayer. I said to God that I believe in Christ, as my relationship with Him and His involvement in my life (another story) just seemed too experientially real for me to deny. But I continued that I couldn't think of any rational reasons for my belief. So I asked God if He really were there, and I wasn't somehow deluded, to help me. Now knowledge didn't just pop into my mind. Infact I vaguely remember thinking God didn't answer my prayer as I was hoping for a bright light to come and talk to me or something . But then I began accumulating more and more information, and things began falling into place. I believe I'm a classic case of the person who said to Jesus, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24). It's been a non-stop accumulation of information since, and at times, especially when I reflect on this earlier part of my life, I feel overwhelmed by it all. As for who made God, I hope you've settle this one, but if not you may be interested to read my response to it.

It wasn't untill last year that i serioulsy began to look for answers. as i attended science class every day in high school, i had to learn about darwins theory because we base all of our work off of that theory. in order to do my work, you had to know about the theory of evolution and the big bang. the more i began to read, the less i began to believe in christ. it wasnt long before i began to loose my faith. i went trough a long period of depression and anxiety because i was looking for answerws that i couldnt find. i wanted to belive in something(the bible) but outside sources where conflicting with my beliefs. over time, i leaned more towards darwins theory. i started to question the meaning of life and what happens when we die. i just couldnt accept dying and never being able to see my loved ones again.

Are you aware to the differing views on creation? I tend to adhere to the Day-Age or what has come to be know as Progressive Creation (see http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ssive.html). It should perhaps be noted Kent Hovind would disapprove though . Although I don't accept macroevolution (seeing as I'm not bound to the philosophy of a Naturalist, and I see many problems with it), I do embrace the "Big Bang" and believe it to be great evidence for God. As Anthony Kenny of Oxford University pointed out, "A proponent of the big bang theory, at least if he is an atheist, must believe that the . . . universe came from nothing and by nothing." (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcrai ... ley02.html) Surely there is nothing more absurd? And the replies I've generally come to see while debating with Atheists, are usually along the lines of "well, who made god?" as though this somehow eradicates their own problem. Although, some for no real reason just deny the consequences of the "Big Bang" or the theory altogether.

as of right now, i dont believe or dissbelieve in god. i just dont know what to do. a part of me wants to believe in something but i feel that if i do believe, it will limit my knowledge and i dont want to be closed minded. therefore, i cant be a christian or atheist.

Fair enough. Maybe you'll follow the same route I did when I came to this crossroad? There are many great books I could recommend to, to help you to examine the Christian side. One book in particular I was particularly fond of, which although was directed more at Christians I'd still recommend to you, was Craig's Reasonable Faith.

the other day my mother asked me to go to church with her and i told her no. when she asked me why, i told her that i dont believe in god and it's not necessary for me to go to church. she told me that one day i wont have anything but faith. for her, faith alone seems to get her through hardships but it's not enough for me. she allways thought that i "believed in and knew god personally". the truth is, i dont.

Perhaps God is bringing you outside to Church to mature you differently to others within? I only say this, because in retrospect I feel this is what God did with me, but I'm perhaps drawing more parallels than actually exist.

being agnostic gives me a sense of open mindedness, yet it gives me a sense of insecurity. i'm a deep thinker and if i belive solely in the bible, i can't accept other theorys but if i do, i have an identity and a true purpose. my question to you is, how do i really find god? if there is a god, how do find him and have a personaly relationship with him?

If only mind-melds were possible? It would be a great thing. Really, you don't find God, you can only seek Him out. But the promise is there, that if you seek, then you shall find. Anyway, welcome to the boards.

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

Kurieuo has offerred some great advice. I had a few thoughts as well...

First I think Kurieuo is on the right track when it comes to science and the Bible. There is no need for a Christian to be close-minded when it comes to science, because science is nothing more than the discovery of the universe that God made. When science appears to be contradicting the Bible, then we're either misinterpretting the Bible or much more likely, science just doesn't have it right yet. For instance, consider evolution - and in particular macroevolution which would state that a new species can evolve through gradual mutations over time. Now in this case I don't think the theory holds water (certainly the fossil record does not support gradual development of new species) but even if it were proven scientific fact, the real error of evolution is the inferrence that if a new species can form, then WE must have formed through evolution. Just like we now are starting to have good ideas about how stars can form, but does that mean that God didn't create our Sun? No; of course not.

So first is the recognition that the concept of creation can (and must) be reconciled with scientific observation. One good theory is Kurieuo's Day-Age theory. I have another theory but here's not the place to discuss it (read more http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=85 here if you want). The main point is that it's possible to trust science at the same time as believing in our loving creator.

With regards to your questions about finding evidence and seeking a relationship with Jesus, there are a number of ways to do this. First would be to just start reading your Bible and actually forming conclusions about what it's actually saying (much like Kurieuo did)... And when you have specific questions ask people for their thoughts. The more you learn the easier it becomes to believe (unlike so many other things that get more unrealistic the more detail you have). Here's an earlier post of mine that explains part of why I believe: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=119

Second, fellowship with people on fire for the Lord will go a long ways - you can clearly see and feel the Holy Spirit manifest in such people. To that end my suggestion would be to seek a church congregation that stresses the important of a personal relationship with Jesus and that is genuinely living for Him. A church that's alive makes God real.

Third the most drastic idea (but perhaps most effective) would be to go on a missions trip. Satan's strategy in our Western Democracies is to simply hide - to convince people that a) their lives are great and they don't need God, and b) that God (or anything else spiritual) doesn't exist in the first place. In poor nations Satan doesn't hide, so when visiting them it's easy to see spiritual forces and spiritual warfare because they're not hidden like they are here. And in the presence of a strong group of believers, very often you'll be witness to miracles and other evidences that affirms their Faith and might help establish yours.

Welcome to the forum, and don't hesitate to ask any questions that you would like to discuss!

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your replies. Reading them gave me a better understanding of this subject and i'll consider doing some of the things that you mentioned. i guess, if there is a god, the first step to finding peace would be to search for it through him. that's something i never thought about but now i'm more open to it. i'll try to get a better understanding of the bible and see what it reveals to me on a personal level.

while we're on the subject of the bible, i want to ask another question. from what i know, the bible has been translated throughout history and version that most people read is the KJV. since it was originally written in hebrew, are there any differences in the texts and have they been destorted or fabricated troughout the years?

[Felgar]

That's a good question and even among Christians you will get a measure of disagreement on it. You can find information about the Bible and its accuracy here http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html if you'd like to read up on. In general it is quite well preserved.

There are slight variations of interpretations and so very often theological debates will call into question these interpretations and direct us back to the original language and texts. However this is usually only brough to light on a small scale - the general gist of what is being said is pretty well completely accurate and preserved.

Beyond that, my general philosophy is that we can choose any major interpretation and read it, and trust what it says entirely. Given that the Bible is the Word of God, I simply believe that it will be preserved from translation to tranlsation. The Bible is to be the foundation of our Faith, and so to me it stands to reason that God would prevent the truth of His Word from being corrupted. And hey, if He can speak the universe into existance He can do what's necessary to ensure that anyone can pick up a Bible and read it with full confidence.

[Anonymous]

I understand your predicament indeed. I too struggled with my faith and now I know the facts about Darwinism and some of the other scientists that support other antitheological scientific concepts. Look at me now ... I'm a Catholic priest! The more I read about the evidence for God, the more I realised - no rational person can deny God - as much as they want to. I also love and admire Him the more I understand. As Christians, we have a burning love that we want to share with you. You can hide Him in mathematical equations as did Steven Hawkings when describing the cosmological constant, but you cannot deny the hard solid facts.

As for you, I feel you have looked elsewhere because the church didn't offer you satisfaction. Obviously, as a Christian, I believe that the gospel alone can "set you free". I suggests three main steps with biblical implications to improve your relationship with the creator.

NOTE: you will be able to find more scientific evidence and information from other members, and manifold websites on this network, so I am going to offer you some spiritual advice instead.

1) Pray atleast once a day - God loves you, and will answer your prayer. When you pray, say the words: "heal thou LORD, my disbelief. Give me the strength to realise you as my redeemer and saviour. "
When you pray, it is important to realise that God is not a far away figure that is hunching down towards Earth to hear your prayer - He is there with you, ever present, ever listening. A prayer can take you five minutes - well worth it.
The word "repentance" means to turn in a new direction like you are doing. Therefore, when you pray, repent "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, save me a sinner and have mercy on me."

2) To deepend your relationship with God, I have found that a good way is to reconcile with your enemies ... please ... bear with me! hehe. I know I sound like an old ranting priest, but before God can accept you, you have to accept His creation. All it takes, is for you to scan your mind for a few people you have negative feelings for, and give them a call and ask them how they are ... worry about them - pray for your enemies. If you do not have the courage to do this, which is understandable, just make a declaration to yourself - "I bare no grudge against those who have offended me. I forgive those who have hurt me, however hurtful it was. I turn the other cheek to those who injure me. In your merciful kindness LORD, find the grace to do the same to me."

3) This is a more practical one, that I suggest you do after the first two steps. I'm talking from experience and not as a priest to you now. You must fear God, and I found a good way of fearing God is to fast! I don't mean don't eat ANYTHING, I mean, say don't have dairy products one day, or abstain from eating between meals for a couple of day. Don't indulge yourself more than is neccessary - and humility will come upon you. The Holy Spirit will not be satisfied with a full stomach. This might sound like an ancient dogmatic "catholic" thing ... but please - when you are more experienced, give it a little try. I know it seems a big sacrifice now, but just you think of the sacrifices God has made for you - His Son on the cross.

I wish you every blessing, and will pray for you personally.
If you need any more advice or practical information for maturing in faith, please don't hesitate to contact me: endesphere05@aol.com

Fr. A[/u][/i]

[Anonymous]

no rational person can deny God - as much as they want to

etc etc.

I do not believe in God. This does not make me irrational, it is not because I do not want to (whatever that is supposed to mean) neither it is because I deny the “hard solid facts”. You are entitled to your ideas of course (and I am genuinely interested in them), but you do not have any more insight into the truth than anyone else. Being so dismissive of those that do not agree with you substantially weakens the worth of your postings which otherwise seem to make a valuable contribution to the thread.

[Felgar]

no rational person can deny God - as much as they want to

etc etc.

I do not believe in God. This does not make me irrational, it is not because I do not want to (whatever that is supposed to mean) neither it is because I deny the “hard solid facts”.

What I think he was getting at here is that most Christians believe (because the Bible tells us) that it is fundamental human nature to recognize that God exists. We are made to know that there is a God. The idea is not without evidence; has atheism ever prevailed at any historical point in the past?

Given that, it's a common conclusion among Christians that those who don't at least recognize that some diety exists are simply hiding from the truth. That they would rather ignore what they know deeply to be true, instead of face the truth that they will innevitably answer to a higher power.

I personally believe that some may have started by denying that truth at some point... But eventually Satan's lies and a person's own unwillingness to seek the truth can completely blind someone to the existance of God. At that point it's not so much that person is denying God, but is rather just completely unable to see Him.

Welcome to the forums by the way. I hope you enjoy your time here and keep an open mind (and heart).

[August]

Hii Walking, welcome.

I am curious:

I do not believe in God. This does not make me irrational, it is not because I do not want to (whatever that is supposed to mean) neither it is because I deny the “hard solid facts”

Why don't you believe in God? You say it's not because you don't want to, and not because you deny the facts? What drives you not to believe then?

[Anonymous]

What drives you not to believe then?

Joey's last sentence from his original posting clearly indicates that he is seeking Christian guidance, so it would not be in the spirit of this board for me to rant on about why he shouldn't. However, the earlier replies seem to have given him some good advice so I will take the liberty of a brief reply.

I do not recognise anything about human conscious that is not intrinsically linked to the physical, i.e. when you die, your conscious stops. For me, that's what the evidence suggests (though it is of course a minority viewpoint). So, without life-after-death, religion makes no sense. This does not preclude intelligent design (we make computers knowing they will end up in the bin), but having read much of both sides of that argument I find that there is too much about the 'God' theory that does not stack up for me to adopt is as a belief.

It seems to me that the human species is in the infancy of what it is to be 'intelligent': you only have to read a newspaper to see that we are in many ways really quite stupid. Not surprising as we haven't been around long. When it comes to seeking the truth I think we are so constrained by the limitations of being human that we can only scratch around with a few ideas and experiments. I am fascinated by those ideas (religious, philosophical and scientific) and I am quite happy that some people genuinely believe in some of them, but I can't help being irked by the notion that people who tend to side with other ideas are somehow stupid / mad / hiding from the truth / evil. This 'know it all' attitude seems to be common (Dawkins and others are equally guilty), it must be just another of man's limitations. It is the reason why I feel so uncomfortable in church services.

[August]

Walking, your position is not uncommon, and of course you have a right to it. And you are right, if there is nothing more than the physical, then religion is bunk.

Would you be interested in discussing this further, or is your mind made up?

[Kurieuo]

It is the reason why I feel so uncomfortable in church services.

I think you get stupidity everywhere, including within church services. I'm personally impartial on "church" attendance. I feel some are not called to be within a church structure, while for others such a setup may be what is required. But have you ever examined and thought about the essential message behind Christianity, devoid of church and religion, and devoid of any stupidity you may have heard come from the mouths of Christians?

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

First let me say that I agree - without life after death Relgion is irrelevant.

Also Kurieuo gave some good advice - study the message and not the messenger. Seek God first - that is the command.

I do not recognise anything about human conscious that is not intrinsically linked to the physical, i.e. when you die, your conscious stops. For me, that's what the evidence suggests (though it is of course a minority viewpoint).

I believe that I can challenge your conclusion here, based on evidence to the contrary. What about all the near-death experiences. Some may be 'imagined' or whatever, but are they all? Many who've been dead and brought back to life medically share very similar experiences.

There are also numerous accounts of people leaving their bodies temporarily. Meditation in some of the Middle Eastern religions can provide that capability. In fact I think Mastermind on this forum has experienced it personally - maybe you should PM him.

All I'm saying is that there is some evidence showing that life is not entirely physical.

[Anonymous]

Would you be interested in discussing this further, or is your mind made up?[/qoute]
I really was not intending to turn this thread into a Christian/Atheist debate: I was attracted to this board because I am interested to read other people's views, not to proliferate my own. However, since I am a guest on your board, I guess it only polite to reply to some extent.

No, my mind is not made up because I do not think that I, nor anyone else, really has much of a clue what is going on. I don't ever expect to find out, but it is fun trying. However, I think it extremely unlikely that I would ever believe that the Bible is written by some higher intelligence, mainly because, for all its laudable philosophies, there is nothing in it (and I have read most of it over the years) that could not have been made up by the people that wrote it. If Genesis had given us a glimpse of solar systems, galaxies, atoms, DNA etc and had given an unambiguous description of the stages of creation in the right order, then it would be a very different story, both for me and I suspect most of humanity. That's the only miracle that God needed to have performed.

I think you get stupidity everywhere, including within church services.

You slightly miss-understand me, I was not accusing church services of being stupid: just they contain elements of a 'we know better than those that don't believe' attitude (and in many cases considerably more hostile than that) that I object to. It exists here on this (and, to be fair, every other) board which is why I posted in the first place.

What about all the near-death experiences?

The many reported near-death and out of body experiences all entail an in-tact, functioning brains so are not evidence (or at the very most are extremely weak evidence) to support the conscious being separate from the physical. Brain damage resulting in loss of conscious or change in personality, and the considerable research that has been done to map various brain functions including the conscious, are to me much stronger evidence to the contrary.

But eventually Satan's lies and a person's own unwillingness to seek the truth can completely blind someone to the existence of God. At that point it's not so much that person is denying God, but is rather just completely unable to see Him.

Ultimately I suspect a protracted conversation between us, whilst it is fun, is never likely to get very far. Discussing the niceties of 'evidence' such as near-death experiences does not get away from the fundamental that I just do not think like you. I do not mean to be remotely disrespectfully, but this quote from Felgar makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. All religions are based on the concept of the spiritual which I just do not have. I do not consider religion to be any different from science since they both seek the truth, and so I use the same approach : theories, evidence, experiments. I have not found a Religion theory that gets past the second of those. I am interested in people who try to apply scientific principles to their religious theories, hence my attraction to your board. I keep an open mind, and will continue to keep looking, but I have not yet come across anything remotely convincing to me.

How do you get the HTML to say who the quote was from?

[August]

Hi Walking,

Maybe we can explore this human conciousness together for a bit. Wilder Penfield, the father of modern neurosurgery, reversed his beliefs that man has only a brain, and nothing more. This followed experiments he did with more than 1000 people who suffered from epilepsy. In these experiments, he would stimulate the brain to move an arm. He would then tell the patient to grab onto that arm with the other hand to stop it from moving, which the patients promptly did. It may not seem like much, but his conclusion was that it was truly a case of mind over matter, ie a nonphysical entity interacting with the brain.

John C. Eccles, a neurophysiologist and Nobel prize winner, said this:" I am constrained to believe that there was what we maight call a supernatural origin of my unique self-conscious mind or my unique self-hood or soul."

Published in the journal "Resuscitation", and presented to scientists at the CIT in 2001, was some evidence from a year-long British study that provided evidence that consciousness continued after a person was declared clinically dead, and the brain stopped functioning. (Parnea, Waller, Fenwick & Yeates, "A Qualitative and Quantitative Study of the Incidence, Features, and Aetiology of Near-death Experience in Cardiac Arrest Survivors".

Add to this the fact that there is no naturalist explanation for the origin of sentience, and we seem to have reason to believe that we may in fact have something more than just the physical self.