new study on nde's says they are real

[Kurieuo]

What type of seal do you use on your mind? Has to be a good one, to keep safe
a belief in yec.

Sorry to anyone who associates either side, but I'm not sure what is more insane.

YEC belief or the universe coming from nothing?
Your extreme Creationist in Ken Ham or your extreme secular scientists in Krauss and bedfellow Dawkins?

Ok, I think I've come to a decision.

Does anyone think the universe came from nothing, or is that a philcartoon version of something more reasonable?

Here I was only talking about the brain sealed with impervium and you make it a matter of sanity.

Perhaps it is. Seeing things that are not there or not seeing things that are cant be readily taken as signs of healthy function. Is that what you are getting at?

Does anyone think the universe came from nothing? Don't you read. I mentioned two names.
Krauss only wrote a book entitled A Universe From Nothing.

Here I see you were also "only" bringing into the discussion YEC.
You want to play your YEC card all the time, I'll raise you on a "universe came from nothing" card.
Stupid exists on both sides. So why always make it a point of issue; one that evidently keeps you from accepting a more rational Christianity.

Dont YOU read?

In the inflationary theory, matter, antimatter, and photons were produced by the energy of the false vacuum, which was released following the phase transition. All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.

Come on, put on your gloves girl.
I enjoy a little sparring from time to time. You know, some call me Krink?
I'm thinking of changing my alias. It probably is suitable.

You asked who believes the universe came from nothing.
I know you're well read. My response, "don't you read" because I had name dropped two who claim just this in their public dialogue, one of which even wrote a book, A Universe from Nothing. Therefore, if you had read what I wrote, you would have already had your answer on some who believe the universe came from nothing.

BUT, now judging from your response below, it seems that you too may believe something so absurd that a small amount of energy needed for universe came into existence from nothing. And you think YECs are crazy? Seriously?

The idea of a zero-energy universe, together with inflation, suggests that all one needs is just a tiny bit of energy to get the whole thing started (that is, a tiny volume of energy in which inflation can begin). The universe then experiences inflationary expansion, but without creating net energy.

Krauss in a recent exchange was saying you just need time; not time like we know it but call it some "cosmological time..." This time is he seemed to call nothing. Personally, I haven't read his book nor do I care to because his claims are just illogical and contradictory based upon what I have heard.
Dawkins was on our ABC's Q&A show was saying the universe literally pops into existence from nothing.
That it was "something mysterious", this nothingness, that the universe popped into existence from.
Such contradictory double talk needs no response.

The fact there is actually "something" doesn't stop them making the claims in public view that the universe actually did pop into existence from nothing.

What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing! The meaning of “nothing” is somewhat ambiguous here. [/i]

You're right. It doesn't seem crazy, but IS crazy.
YECism has nothing on the belief that something can come from nothing.
IF, and only if, you believe that -- then you're more crazy than you think Ken Ham is in the morning with eggs.
(and I'm talking dinosaur eggs because we "know" they lived along side humanity! )

The whole creogument of god vs something from nothing is just a facile bit nonsense offered for lack of something substantive. Seizing on something with which to play equivocation games. A philcartoon version of something reasonable.

At least YEC makes logical sense even if it doesn't stand up to reality.

But perhaps you consider theoretical astrophysics insane? Total unreason? LIke, the only way to derive such equations is via insanity?

"Total unreason" something coming from nothing? Why YES! Most definitely.
Someone shouldn't even bother talking to such a person who believes such nonsense.

A lot of theoretical thinking is insane. Krauss' doesn't represent all scientific opinion.
By no means he has scientific consensus. And if he did (which it doesn't) then scientific consensus belongs in an asylum.

BUT, thankfully, It seems that "scientists" just like how you see "Biblical scholars" disagree over how to interpret the facts of the matter.
Even if it might seem to be that some are just choosing to follow what they want to believe at the end of the day.

.......... but I'm not sure what is more insane.

YEC belief or the universe coming from nothing

You brought up YEC not me. You said its insane. Own it. No red herrings about
theoretical astrophysics.

Actually, YEC was brought up by you china girl...
something to do with FL's mind being able to retain yec.

YEC seems to be your favourite go-to card.
That's why I'm picking on it here. I'd like you to start using something new.
Every time you play it I think I'll play the "universe from nothing" card to show your kind are more crazy.
Just pick up a new line to use against Christians and I promise I'll settle.

And stop being crazy; you don't seriously believe something can come from nothing now do you?

[Audie]

Krink, you make your posts too long and discursive for me to want to try to answer all of it.
You said...
...............................................................
BUT, now judging from your response below, it seems that you too may believe something so absurd that a small amount of energy needed for universe came into existence from nothing. And you think YECs are crazy? Seriously?
.........................................................................


I dont think yecs are crazy. Their ideas are ridiculous. What they do to themselves to force themselves to believe as they do, you think of your own label. You call it crazy, good enough.

I dont think "something came from nothing". Astrophysics is out pat my competency.
But my understanding is that "something from nothing" is not a position held by anyone in science.

It is, tho, the belief of creationists of all stripes. "God", who came from nothing in all his brilliant mind and power, made the universe from nothing.

I know, I know, you have "philosophy" to get you out of the obvious. I recommend you stop acting crazy.

[B. W.]

...Atheists say they have the answer to why there is something rather than nothing—the nothing created it! However, their explanation takes science and turns it on its head—performing miracles of creation through unknown physics or mechanisms that are extremely unlikely to occur. The simplest explanation for the existence of all the something we see is that an extremely intelligent being, God, willed it to happen for His own purposes, and left evidence of that purpose in the nature of His creation and His communication with the creatures He created. The important things in life are not derived from the stuff we can see, but from the One who created it.

Arictical Quoted from this Article

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[Audie]

And Rick Deem says it, so its gospel.

[B. W.]

However intentioned, BW, your post is not addressed to me, but to some person you choose to believe exists
outside your mind.

Yes, it was addressed to you as well as to anyone else who reads who is agnostic, atheist, of their own of God granted free volition.

Myself and a few others, like FL were more snarky than you are when we were of the atheistic camp. Then over a period of time in my old life I was confronted by real Christians who were lovingly confrontational. I ignored their logic, as you are doing so now. So lovingly offending you is a good option. Last we discussed the gospel account of why Jesus came, I left it for you to ponder. Don't forget, you did admit to your own dysfunction in relationships etc and etc, that you are not perfect. If find it amusing how you demand non-offending perfection from others on this forum yet you excuses your own behavior.

One day, your mortal life will end, and all your debate styles and reasoning will do you no good. If you desire to actually talk about the afterlife instead of rabbit trials on creationism verses denial, then try facing your own mortal death. None of us knows when our own will occur we do know that it will last longer than moral life does.

What do you think will happen to you after you die...So what would you say standing before God whom the bible reveals, after you die?

Please spare us my old range of answers from: I don't know, just nothingness, just a dead hunk of meat, who cares, I can't believe must have science, you can't convince me - I need proof, blank off-get a life...

What do you think will happen to you after you die?

So what would you say standing before God whom the bible reveals, after you die?

Of course you will come back and waste time by responding with counter question - What happens if you find out that God is not real?

Let me answer that in advance then... I know He is real, and know Him, and am known by Him and found Him and you can too... He offers a new life, why will you not try it for a change and discover for yourself?

so again I ask...

What do you think will happen to you after you die?

So what would you say standing before God whom the bible reveals, after you die?
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[Audie]

My original response stands. You said a number of outlandish things about me then, and added to it here.

You've offered no logic.

You make up lines for me not to use.

Claim to know things you could not know.

Why would I want to be like you?

[PaulSacramento]

RE NDE varying from people to people:

There are various reasons for that, the main one being that regardless of what happens to anyone when they have a NDE, when they are OUT of it they have to communicate it in a way that THEY think best suits what they FEEL happened and many times, well, words just don't work.
We also need to understand that people, even those that have NDE's, are still people and they may see and understand what they WANT and not what is ( See CS Lewis' "the great divorce" and how some of the <dead>people still thought they were right) and that there is no loss of free will during a NDE. Yes, demons will try to influence those that are closer to God then others and that may even be more son during a NDE.

It seems that some people, even in death, will still only see what they want to.

Never forget that after 1000 years of living in peace with Our Lord, after Satan is released that some ( many) will still follow him.

[Audie]

Back on topic is good

[RickD]

And Rick Deem says it, so its gospel.

Audie, FYI, it's Rich Deem, not Rick. A few people have gotten me confused with him. He's much smarter than I am, so I don't want him to be insulted.

[Philip]

Audie: Back on topic is good

Yes, WAY too much heat in that OTHER kitchen's topic, eh?

Audie, theoretically, IF you could know that God exists - the God of the Bible - would you see that as a good thing and thus want to know more about Him, to find out what He offers you? Or would you avoid Him?

For those who have no faith in any definitive afterlife or heaven - that have no hopes beyond this sinking blue ship we're all on - does it not bother them that they have no hope? That there's nothing more? That they are running out of days, that they will, one day, merely grow old and in the end, something will end this life they currently have. Why wouldn't one want to at least diligently search to see if there might be something more, or Someone of immense hope? It's strange, but unbelievers so often act as if the God of the Bible, "if" real, would be a nightmare for them, Someone to be avoided. WHY? Isn't this a subject that truly, appropriately and directly is what the question of NDEs is all about!

[Audie]

Audie: Back on topic is good

Yes, WAY too much heat in that OTHER kitchen's topic, eh?

Ha.

Audie, theoretically, IF you could know that God exists - the God of the Bible - would you see that as a good thing and thus want to know more about Him, to find out what He offers you? Or would you avoid Him?

Biggest best most exciting news imaginable. As long as its not that OT guy, he seems like a psycho.

For those who have no faith in any definitive afterlife or heaven - that have no hopes beyond this sinking blue ship we're all on - does it not bother them that they have no hope?

Sinking blue ship?

As for the hope q, the flip answer is, neither you nor I has hope to be Ms America.

The non flip answer, I will have to think about how to express it.

For now lets say tho, that the existence of god and the after life / lack of same may well be the fundamental reality from which all other considerations arise.

To me it no more figures in than who will win the superbowl.

That there's nothing more? That they are running out of days, that they will, one day, merely grow old and in the end, something will end this life they currently have. Why wouldn't one want to at least diligently search to see if there might be something more, or Someone of immense hope?

never occurred to me to.

It's strange, but unbelievers so often act as if the God of the Bible, "if" real, would be a nightmare for them,

Well, the one in the OT is quite the charmer.

Someone to be avoided. WHY? Isn't this a subject that truly, appropriately and directly is what the question of NDEs is all about![

um, perhaps. is it?
[/quote]

[Kurieuo]

I know, I know, you have "philosophy" to get you out of the obvious. I recommend you stop acting crazy.

You and others may call it "philosophy", but I just call it "logic and reason".
And what we call "science" really just amounts to explanations of particular "experiences" in our world.
These explanations wouldn't get off the ground without "logic and reason" so good science should never check in their mind at the door.

It also isn't that God "came from nothing" but rather Something has always existed.
Even my 7 year old daughter plainly gets this. If something hasn't always existed, then nothing would exist.
BUT, because some can't fathom something having always existed, they opt to believe something therefore comes from nothing -- which is absolute stupidity whether you're talking Atheist or Theist.
It's not about philosophy, it's about plain logic and reason that's obvious to even a 7yo.

You don't want to take up Krauss' case, and I don't want to push his views onto your own, but he is an example of someone who does tout something comes from nothing.
And the funny thing is, what he describes as nothing, isn't really nothing but something.
That's just crazy stupid to me. An infinite universe is to be preferred over such.

[Audie]

I know, I know, you have "philosophy" to get you out of the obvious. I recommend you stop acting crazy.

You and others may call it "philosophy", but I just call it "logic and reason".
And what we call "science" really just amounts to explanations of particular "experiences" in our world.
These explanations wouldn't get off the ground without "logic and reason" so good science should never check in their mind at the door.

It also isn't that God "came from nothing" but rather Something has always existed.
Even my 7 year old daughter plainly gets this. If something hasn't always existed, then nothing would exist.
BUT, because some can't fathom something having always existed, they opt to believe something therefore comes from nothing -- which is absolute stupidity whether you're talking Atheist or Theist.
It's not about philosophy, it's about plain logic and reason that's obvious to even a 7yo.

You don't want to take up Krauss' case, and I don't want to push his views onto your own, but he is an example of someone who does tout something comes from nothing.
And the funny thing is, what he describes as nothing, isn't really nothing but something.
That's just crazy stupid to me. An infinite universe is to be preferred over such.

Physics has a great habit of being counterintuitive. The intuition of a child easily understands that a heavy thing will fall faster than a light one.

The sleight of hand thing making " god" eternal rather than something from nothing
does not impress me, at all. I dont know what time is, neither do you. What is "always" if you dont even know what time is? What if "something' is just math?
The universe is just too weird for people sitting about "philosophizing" to figure out.

I think the universe is infinite, ( and getting more so all the time )
If you think it is too, then a point of agreement.

[Kurieuo]

I know, I know, you have "philosophy" to get you out of the obvious. I recommend you stop acting crazy.

You and others may call it "philosophy", but I just call it "logic and reason".
And what we call "science" really just amounts to explanations of particular "experiences" in our world.
These explanations wouldn't get off the ground without "logic and reason" so good science should never check in their mind at the door.

It also isn't that God "came from nothing" but rather Something has always existed.
Even my 7 year old daughter plainly gets this. If something hasn't always existed, then nothing would exist.
BUT, because some can't fathom something having always existed, they opt to believe something therefore comes from nothing -- which is absolute stupidity whether you're talking Atheist or Theist.
It's not about philosophy, it's about plain logic and reason that's obvious to even a 7yo.

You don't want to take up Krauss' case, and I don't want to push his views onto your own, but he is an example of someone who does tout something comes from nothing.
And the funny thing is, what he describes as nothing, isn't really nothing but something.
That's just crazy stupid to me. An infinite universe is to be preferred over such.

Physics has a great habit of being counterintuitive. The intuition of a child easily understands that a heavy thing will fall faster than a light one.

The sleight of hand thing making " god" eternal rather than something from nothing
does not impress me, at all. I dont know what time is, neither do you. What is "always" if you dont even know what time is? What if "something' is just math?
The universe is just too weird for people sitting about "philosophizing" to figure out.

I think the universe is infinite, ( and getting more so all the time )
If you think it is too, then a point of agreement.

Didn't you just say the universe is just too weird for people sitting about "philosophizing" to figure out?
And are you not here making a sleight of hand making the universe eternal rather than something from nothing?

Logic leads me to KNOW something can't come from nothing.
Something must have always existed. You too believe this if you think an infinite universe.

Philosophy can take a hike. I'm talking pure reason.
If anyone believes in something so foolish as something coming from nothing, then I don't want to entertain them.
I.e., Krauss, Dawkins and co. I will you however, if you so choose, because I love ya and have committed to tolerating you as you have me.

[abelcainsbrother]

Why do atheists ignore the 2nd law of thermodynamics and the substantiated science behind the big bang? To believe the universe is eternal is to ignore that the universe has a deep freeze coming because of the 2nd law unless God intervenes an adds more hydrogen for stars to burn,but also they ignore that the 2nd law came into existence at the big bang.