The historicity of Jesus Christ and the truth of his resurrection are, without doubt, among the most discussed and important topics of human history. Almost 2000 years ago, a man claimed to be the Son of God, performed miracles to prove this and then rose from the dead to really throw away any doubt.
However, we live in an age of untold amounts of scepticism. Christ's death was so long ago we have only a book telling us what happened: the Holy Bible. These days however, more and more people see the resurrection as a completely unbelievable event and thus discard it as stone-age babble. My question is as follows: God allowed us to live this long on Earth, to gain such scientific advancements and understanding that many believe "fuel the fires" of atheism and disbelief. God has not yet seen fit to end the world and take His righteous to heaven. Is it part of God's plan to allow us to live for so long past Christ's resurrection and to advance so far in science to create such an air of doubt and disbelief around the subject? I know one of the central tenets of Christianity is free will and the person is responsible for what they do, God can only hint and gently prod; it is ultimately down to the person to decide. But events so far away automatically start to fall into the realm of legend. It's just our human nature.
I'd like to hear your views on this. Was it God's intention, and if so, why?
Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbelieve
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Disciplical
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
Nope, it wasn't God's intention. Our propensity forDisciplical wrote:I'd like to hear your views on this. Was it God's intention, and if so, why?
and 
is as a result of our sin nature. Unregenerate man has 
for the things of God.FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
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Jac3510
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
No, God did not intend for us to doubt argue, and disbelieve.
It's important to note that the skepticism existed in Jesus' own day and in the first few decades of the church. In fact, you can argue it was worse. Take any of our resident atheists and agnostics on this very board. If Jesus Himself were to appear before them and do any of the miracles He did in Scripture--raise a loved one from the dead, feed thousands of people from a single sack lunch, heal lame people on the spot, restore sight to the blind, etc.--what do you think their response would be? It's hard to imagine that they wouldn't fall at His feet in worship.* (asterisk is for you especially, FL!) And yet, when you look through the pages of the gospels, the miracles Jesus did only made His opponents angrier and more determined to kill him. They decided they needed to kill Lazarus, too! What kind of skepticism is that? And thinking of Jesus' resurrection in particular, Thomas refused to believe until he saw. Hello, skepticism. And Paul had to write an entire chapter in 1 Corinthians (chapter 15, if you don't know) dealing with people in the church who were denying that Jesus had risen from the dead. Again, more skepticism. Such wacky ideas were so widespread that John judged as "antichrist" anyone who denied that Jesus had come in the flesh, meaning these people were so skeptical of the resurrection that they just denied Jesus had a physical body.
So, again, I'd say that skepticism is far worse than ours today. At least people have an excuse (of sorts). They can say that we only know about it from an old book, and they don't even understand that book. They think it is filled with stories written decades or hundreds of years after the fact, that it is set in a "once upon a time" fashion. They don't realize that it was written by and contains first hand and eyewitness accounts of historical events. In other words, they don't have the same evidence staring them in the face that the early church did.
The question, then, isn't why God allows so much skepticism today, but how we account for such skepticism in the first century and even among Jesus' followers?! (as an aside, this is very good historical evidence of the veracity of Scriptures as it amounts to admission of embarrassing material).
The answer has to be very theological--it's as much about God as about man. God allows this kind of disbelief. But why? Some of it certainly goes to that free will thing. In the OT, Joshua asks the Israelites to "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD" (Josh 24:15). But I think it goes a bit deeper than that. Remember that God made us in His image. My understanding of that is that we are the visible representation of the invisible God. When you, and all the rest of creation, looks at a human being, you are looking at a reflection of God Himself. That's why murder and lying and stealing and hateful rhetoric are so ugly. You are assaulting the very image of God with such behavior. And preachers are good at talking about that. But what about our responsibility as God's image? And this is where, to me, the free will piece becomes so much deeper. God isn't just asking you to bow before Him. He is asking you to represent Him. That is a profound act of the whole person--the intellect, the heart, and the will. Yet people don't want to represent God. They want to represent themselves (and that is the root of all sin, including Adam's). And so they fail to believe, to trust God. They trust themselves; that self-trust is at the root of all folly and all that is evil (and so Prov 1:7; 3:5-6). And all forms of skepticism flow from that. And that is God's intention, that at the end of time, those who represent Him will rule and reign with Him (to their own joy and bliss) for all of eternity, whereas those who wished to represent only themselves will have cut themselves off from Goodness Itself for all of eternity.
Bottom line: this is not a new problem. It's as old as mankind, and it will be with us until the new heaven and new earth are established. It simply remains for us who believe to love, serve, and to be prepared to answer people why we believe.
* Of course, it is entirely possible, if not likely, that our resident unbelievers would persist in their unbelief, and that for several reasons. 1) as I've argued above, it's just the human condition; 2) such wilfull disbelief is highly precedented in human history; and 3) the Bible itself tells us that we tend to disbelief in our sin, and as such, such miracles often only serve to further confirm us in our rebellion. Still, the fact remains that many are persuaded by the miraculous (again, that is the testimony of Scripture), so we can't make blanket statements here about what anyone would or would not do.
It's important to note that the skepticism existed in Jesus' own day and in the first few decades of the church. In fact, you can argue it was worse. Take any of our resident atheists and agnostics on this very board. If Jesus Himself were to appear before them and do any of the miracles He did in Scripture--raise a loved one from the dead, feed thousands of people from a single sack lunch, heal lame people on the spot, restore sight to the blind, etc.--what do you think their response would be? It's hard to imagine that they wouldn't fall at His feet in worship.* (asterisk is for you especially, FL!) And yet, when you look through the pages of the gospels, the miracles Jesus did only made His opponents angrier and more determined to kill him. They decided they needed to kill Lazarus, too! What kind of skepticism is that? And thinking of Jesus' resurrection in particular, Thomas refused to believe until he saw. Hello, skepticism. And Paul had to write an entire chapter in 1 Corinthians (chapter 15, if you don't know) dealing with people in the church who were denying that Jesus had risen from the dead. Again, more skepticism. Such wacky ideas were so widespread that John judged as "antichrist" anyone who denied that Jesus had come in the flesh, meaning these people were so skeptical of the resurrection that they just denied Jesus had a physical body.
So, again, I'd say that skepticism is far worse than ours today. At least people have an excuse (of sorts). They can say that we only know about it from an old book, and they don't even understand that book. They think it is filled with stories written decades or hundreds of years after the fact, that it is set in a "once upon a time" fashion. They don't realize that it was written by and contains first hand and eyewitness accounts of historical events. In other words, they don't have the same evidence staring them in the face that the early church did.
The question, then, isn't why God allows so much skepticism today, but how we account for such skepticism in the first century and even among Jesus' followers?! (as an aside, this is very good historical evidence of the veracity of Scriptures as it amounts to admission of embarrassing material).
The answer has to be very theological--it's as much about God as about man. God allows this kind of disbelief. But why? Some of it certainly goes to that free will thing. In the OT, Joshua asks the Israelites to "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD" (Josh 24:15). But I think it goes a bit deeper than that. Remember that God made us in His image. My understanding of that is that we are the visible representation of the invisible God. When you, and all the rest of creation, looks at a human being, you are looking at a reflection of God Himself. That's why murder and lying and stealing and hateful rhetoric are so ugly. You are assaulting the very image of God with such behavior. And preachers are good at talking about that. But what about our responsibility as God's image? And this is where, to me, the free will piece becomes so much deeper. God isn't just asking you to bow before Him. He is asking you to represent Him. That is a profound act of the whole person--the intellect, the heart, and the will. Yet people don't want to represent God. They want to represent themselves (and that is the root of all sin, including Adam's). And so they fail to believe, to trust God. They trust themselves; that self-trust is at the root of all folly and all that is evil (and so Prov 1:7; 3:5-6). And all forms of skepticism flow from that. And that is God's intention, that at the end of time, those who represent Him will rule and reign with Him (to their own joy and bliss) for all of eternity, whereas those who wished to represent only themselves will have cut themselves off from Goodness Itself for all of eternity.
Bottom line: this is not a new problem. It's as old as mankind, and it will be with us until the new heaven and new earth are established. It simply remains for us who believe to love, serve, and to be prepared to answer people why we believe.
* Of course, it is entirely possible, if not likely, that our resident unbelievers would persist in their unbelief, and that for several reasons. 1) as I've argued above, it's just the human condition; 2) such wilfull disbelief is highly precedented in human history; and 3) the Bible itself tells us that we tend to disbelief in our sin, and as such, such miracles often only serve to further confirm us in our rebellion. Still, the fact remains that many are persuaded by the miraculous (again, that is the testimony of Scripture), so we can't make blanket statements here about what anyone would or would not do.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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abelcainsbrother
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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UsagiTsukino
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
Well Christianity has increase in Asia, Middle East, and Africa but declined in Europe, US it's declining slowly.
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tunde1992
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
I wonder why it's decreasing in primarily first world countries
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
-matthew 6:33
-matthew 6:33
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
People that believe they are in full control and that they can fix everything, typically feel no need for God to exist.tunde1992 wrote:I wonder why it's decreasing in primarily first world countries
There is also the issue of people having been "burned" by organized religion and turning away from "denominations".
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tunde1992
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
Good point. I would've thought something differently. I would've thought since the first world countries enjoy much more luxuries, freedoms and a higher standard of living, they'd be thankful to God. I suppose that seems like wishful thinking.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
-matthew 6:33
-matthew 6:33
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Disciplical
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Re: Was it God's intention for us to doubt, argue and disbel
Perhaps it is the selfish, sinful nature of people to not feel the need to be thankful or grateful for what they have. There is a strange sense of irony that starving families often thank God for any loaf of bread they are given, whilst the pampered generation of the west shun God more and more despite the best quality of life humanity has ever seen.tunde1992 wrote:Good point. I would've thought something differently. I would've thought since the first world countries enjoy much more luxuries, freedoms and a higher standard of living, they'd be thankful to God. I suppose that seems like wishful thinking.