Is secularism spreading?

[Kenny]

Maybe 20% wasn`t/isn`t enough.

Giving up after 4 years too soon? Perhaps not for you but for me it would be. I have been looking for God for as long as I can remember. I`ve been through all the doubt, all the is it too good to be true? Is it really possible? I never, ever gave up on finding God. If you give up on looking for Him you will never find Him, that`s a definite. If you keep looking, with all your heart and mind you will find Him. You just have to want to enough.

How long were you actively looking before you found God?

Truth. That`s a tough one because as convinced as you are that you know the truth, I am convinced that I do too. And guess what? One of us is wrong. Trouble is, how do we figure out who?

Good point!

Do me a favour Ken? Keep looking, don`t close yourself off to the possibility that you might be wrong about this, don`t give up on God because it wasn`t an instant thing.
Try praying again? With an open heart.

Because this matters.

I always acknowledge the possibility I could be wrong, and I am always searching for answers. The difference now as apposed to when I was a believer, is now anything can be put on the table; where as before if I felt it contradicted christianity in any way it was immediately taken off the table. An honest search for the truth without any "sacred cows" getting in the way is what lead me to where I am today

Ken

[RickD]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

[Kenny]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

In MY case, it meant I used to be Christian.

Ken

[RickD]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

In MY case, it meant I used to be Christian.

Ken

I figured that much. What does it mean to be a Christian?

[Kurieuo]

So many of you xtians are so into binary thinking. Absolutes. What is with that? Is it a cause or res
Ult of religiosity?

Have you create an absolute category there for many of us Christians?
Are you not just as absolute about not Christianity and not God.

[quote=""Audie"]There a lot of kinds of "true". Are parables true?[/quote]
I don't know what you are meaning...

"All" it entails? By whose figuring? Gappists, yec, Mormons, and all the other interpretations and mutually contradictory takes on "truth"? Unicorns?

So then... if a crime is committed against another whether a murder, rape or assault.
And we have different witnesses to it. They're all wrong? Unicorns?

Let's examine Gappists and YEC. They differ on creation story?
I guarantee you that any YEC and Gappist on this board that they agree on Christ.
Or Mormons who add to the Bible with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, something clearly forewarned against in Scripture via being wise to false prophets.

But then, where there is a distortion of truth, there must exist the Truth upon which such distortions can occur.

[quote=""Audie"]Some percent of Christians for sure are fools. But which? Everyone says its them others gets it wrong.[/quote]
You have this bias against Christians.
Why not just some some percent of Atheists, Agnostics, Hong Kongians, Australians, American, [insert any group].
And guess what, there is as much diverse opinions as their are people. BUT, what is the one truth that makes a Christian CHRISTIAN?
It must be something akin to the one truth that makes rape RAPE, or assault ASSAULT, or murder MURDER.
Some basis in an objective reality that is separate from the subject (us).

There is also large agreement, so let's take your argument to an extreme that "diverse opinions between those groups mean they're ALL wrong on matters they disagree."
Then using the same reasoning, these groups must be ALL be right on matter that they agree.
Therefore using your argument to dismiss many "fringe" beliefs where there is disagreement,
God must exist as too Christ who performed miracles, was crucified and resurrection -- since all these groups agree on this.

Furthermore, you leave me wondering whether you agree with everything Dawkins says?
If not, then I can't trust you on anything biology-wise. Or is it Dawkins I can't trust?
Oh damn. I guess you're both always wrong. OR, maybe I can pull my thumb out to examine matters myself, any disagreements, and come to a conclusion myself.

As for Jesus the lunatic..how do YOU know what he really said or meant by it? Remote viewing?

Have you read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity? If not, then I'd highly recommend it to you.
It should be a recommended reading by anyone Christian or not who is on a board like this discussing such issues.
Especially for the Jesus honest, liar or lunatic chatter.

How about these two possibilities:

Either you are gifted with infallible readin' and err not, or you are not.

I think many of us Christians concede that we may be wrong on this or that.
The one issue we're adamant upon is Christ.

If on the other hand you think we can never be right about anything, then why should we listen to you?
You have nothing you can be right about (truth) to contribute. Anyone's opinion is therefore as good as each others.
We may as well believe anything we want to believe since truth is all a matter of opinion anyway.

Sorry, I don't buy into relative truth. Some things really are true despite what anyone thinks.
AND, I believe we can know truth, and indeed experience the truth of reality in a practical way every day.

[Kurieuo]

I think the bigger problem is the fact that people are just using fear to get people to accepted God and not love

Fear is a very effective tool. The thread of eternal torture via Hell fire was the most difficult thing to get past when I lost my faith. Love was easy; I was capable of love myself! But hell fire..... Talkin about scared straight!

Ken

But your fear of Hell wasn`t enough for you to keep your faith. Maybe His love can tempt you back.

Ken? I really, really can`t get my head around how and why you lost your faith. It just seems incredulous to me that someone would go from having faith and believing to turning away from God.
I don`t know how much of your story you want to share on the forum but do you think it`s possible you gave up on God too soon? Do you want to believe again?

Ken has told me a little about his past and I've heard of similar stories.

I'm fairly certain that I have a good picture of the Christianity that his parents had, the churches that he was brought up with and the messages that were taught.
And Kenny hasn't told me very much but some things do resonate such that it does make some sense to me how and why he perhaps left.

There is a movie coming out to do with the Apostle Paul that is starring Hugh Jackman and produced by him, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.
Jackman will be playing the Apostle Paul. As such, I expect all three and in particular Jackman, will be reading all up on Paul and what he preached.
And what Paul preached and taught is very freeing and liberating and often like chaulk and cheese to what you find in many Christian churches.

Jackman was also brought up by his father who was Evangelical and always attended Billy Graham crusades.
I dare say that Kenny's story has many similaries to Jackman's reasons on why he left Christianity and what he felt was "restrictive".
This article (http://www.happysonship.com/hugh-jackman-meets-jesus/), I really think, summarises the issues all so well -- about why people like Jackman and Ken walked away.
Highly recommend having a read of it.

But, Jackman having to read over Paul for his role, I'd expect will provide some new insights
-- a different and more freeing message to what Jackman (and likely Kenny) may have been acquainted with during church life -- talk of fire and brimstone, end times preaching (argumentum ad baculum) mixed with a vacuous Christian spirituality and meaningless religious slogans and words. If the well is dry and you realise that it has been dry for most of your adolescent life, then having walked away from it why should you return? You may not fully quench your thirst elsewhere, but at least you're not having to stick to the same old dry well.

For those who do not have such experience, have not tasted such Christianity growing up, it is hard to provide an insight that only comes through experience. It is one reason I find settling in a church difficult.
BUT, having myself been brought up with a similar Christianity, I definitely understand how someone can just end up rolling their eyes and walking away into a perceived freedom of rationalized secular thought.
It's sad, and people like Ken shouldn't bare all the responsibility of having walked away, but also people in churches who created and even fall into the spiritual pretense and culture that we humans create which can end up being vacuous.

As with myself, I never truly understood the message of Christianity, the gospel Paul taught, until I was 19/20 years old.
Yes, I understood all the religious phrases like being saved by the blood of Jesus, and Christ died for our sins, and this and that.
I understood a great deal, but there was a changing moment that happened with myself as I read a commentary on Romans.
Like my eyes were opened, all the pennies dropped and the hollow Christian slogans and words which I never really understood in retrospect (although I thought I did) suddenly become full of meaning and substance.

[Audie]

So many of you xtians are so into binary thinking. Absolutes. What is with that? Is it a cause or res
Ult of religiosity?

Have you create an absolute category there for many of us Christians?
Are you not just as absolute about not Christianity and not God.

[quote=""Audie"]There a lot of kinds of "true". Are parables true?

I don't know what you are meaning...

"All" it entails? By whose figuring? Gappists, yec, Mormons, and all the other interpretations and mutually contradictory takes on "truth"? Unicorns?

So then... if a crime is committed against another whether a murder, rape or assault.
And we have different witnesses to it. They're all wrong? Unicorns?

Let's examine Gappists and YEC. They differ on creation story?
I guarantee you that any YEC and Gappist on this board that they agree on Christ.
Or Mormons who add to the Bible with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, something clearly forewarned against in Scripture via being wise to false prophets.

But then, where there is a distortion of truth, there must exist the Truth upon which such distortions can occur.

[quote=""Audie"]Some percent of Christians for sure are fools. But which? Everyone says its them others gets it wrong.[/quote]
You have this bias against Christians.
Why not just some some percent of Atheists, Agnostics, Hong Kongians, Australians, American, [insert any group].
And guess what, there is as much diverse opinions as their are people. BUT, what is the one truth that makes a Christian CHRISTIAN?
It must be something akin to the one truth that makes rape RAPE, or assault ASSAULT, or murder MURDER.
Some basis in an objective reality that is separate from the subject (us).

There is also large agreement, so let's take your argument to an extreme that "diverse opinions between those groups mean they're ALL wrong on matters they disagree."
Then using the same reasoning, these groups must be ALL be right on matter that they agree.
Therefore using your argument to dismiss many "fringe" beliefs where there is disagreement,
God must exist as too Christ who performed miracles, was crucified and resurrection -- since all these groups agree on this.

Furthermore, you leave me wondering whether you agree with everything Dawkins says?
If not, then I can't trust you on anything biology-wise. Or is it Dawkins I can't trust?
Oh damn. I guess you're both always wrong. OR, maybe I can pull my thumb out to examine matters myself, any disagreements, and come to a conclusion myself.

As for Jesus the lunatic..how do YOU know what he really said or meant by it? Remote viewing?

Have you read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity? If not, then I'd highly recommend it to you.
It should be a recommended reading by anyone Christian or not who is on a board like this discussing such issues.
Especially for the Jesus honest, liar or lunatic chatter.

How about these two possibilities:

Either you are gifted with infallible readin' and err not, or you are not.

I think many of us Christians concede that we may be wrong on this or that.
The one issue we're adamant upon is Christ.

If on the other hand you think we can never be right about anything, then why should we listen to you?
You have nothing you can be right about (truth) to contribute. Anyone's opinion is therefore as good as each others.
We may as well believe anything we want to believe since truth is all a matter of opinion anyway.

Sorry, I don't buy into relative truth. Some things really are true despite what anyone thinks.
AND, I believe we can know truth, and indeed experience the truth of reality in a practical way every day.[/quote]

Good one, Krink, make it about me personally, irrelevant attributes real and imaginary, not the merit of anything I said.
Isnt there some Latin term for that?

[RickD]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

In MY case, it meant I used to be Christian.

Ken

I figured that much. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Kenny,

When you get a chance, I'd love to hear your answer.

[Storyteller]

Maybe 20% wasn`t/isn`t enough.

Giving up after 4 years too soon? Perhaps not for you but for me it would be. I have been looking for God for as long as I can remember. I`ve been through all the doubt, all the is it too good to be true? Is it really possible? I never, ever gave up on finding God. If you give up on looking for Him you will never find Him, that`s a definite. If you keep looking, with all your heart and mind you will find Him. You just have to want to enough.

How long were you actively looking before you found God?

I have been looking for as long as I can remember. I was looking for God before I even knew that it was God I was looking for.

Truth. That`s a tough one because as convinced as you are that you know the truth, I am convinced that I do too. And guess what? One of us is wrong. Trouble is, how do we figure out who?

Good point!

Do me a favour Ken? Keep looking, don`t close yourself off to the possibility that you might be wrong about this, don`t give up on God because it wasn`t an instant thing.
Try praying again? With an open heart.

Because this matters.

I always acknowledge the possibility I could be wrong, and I am always searching for answers. The difference now as apposed to when I was a believer, is now anything can be put on the table; where as before if I felt it contradicted christianity in any way it was immediately taken off the table. An honest search for the truth without any "sacred cows" getting in the way is what lead me to where I am today

Anything can be put on the table? Anything except God?

Ken[/quote]

[Kenny]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

In MY case, it meant I used to be Christian.

Ken

I figured that much. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Kenny,

When you get a chance, I'd love to hear your answer.

I believe a Christian is a person who believes Jesus is the son of God, and attempts to live their life according to his teachings.

Ken\

[Kenny]

Anything can be put on the table? Anything except God?

Ken

I have always considered myself more of a skeptic than an atheist. If I took the option of God off the table, I wouldn't be a true skeptic. But before I can consider these claims of God as true, these claims must meet the same criteria as everything else on the table I consider true.

Ken

[RickD]

Ken,

I just noticed recently, that you are saying that you used to be a believer. Can you explain to me exactly what that means? What does it mean to be a believer?

In MY case, it meant I used to be Christian.

Ken

I figured that much. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Kenny,

When you get a chance, I'd love to hear your answer.

I believe a Christian is a person who believes Jesus is the son of God, and attempts to live their life according to his teachings.

Ken\

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

[Kenny]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

[Kurieuo]

Good one, Krink, make it about me personally, irrelevant attributes real and imaginary, not the merit of anything I said.
Isnt there some Latin term for that?

What are you saying I'm doing?
I'm not sure I understand.

[Kurieuo]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

Was it when it came to plucking out your eye that you decided to leave?
That's probably when most "Christians" decide that they no longer wish to follow Christ.