Is secularism spreading?

[Kenny]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

Was it when it came to plucking out your eye that you decided to leave?
That's probably when most "Christians" decide that they no longer wish to follow Christ.

Naww that was just one small brick in a very large wall

K

[RickD]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

Ken,

Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and trying to live according to Christ's teachings, isn't the way to eternal life. And isn't the way to become a Christian. So, if I take you at your word, and believe you when you say that you used to be a Christian because "you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings", then I'd say that you were never a believer.

The bible says that one is a believer when one trusts in Christ for salvation. As simple as that is, it seems you completely missed it.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The word translated as "believes", is the Greek word pisteuō, which means:

to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

If one believes in Christ, one trusts that who he is, and what he has done is efficacious for salvation.

Just so you know, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, isn't how one becomes a believer/Christian. It's all about simple trust.

[Kurieuo]

Matt 18:1-7

• 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
  2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
  6“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
  7Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Mark 10:13-15

• 13And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Rick, you could look at it the other way.
Having children I realise that they're quite willing to embrace God.
It actually kind of seems second nature to them as soon as they start thinking about where they came from.
I'm raising them also with a correct understanding of Christ and God. Some day I know, perhaps in their later adolescence, that they'll be faced with a decision of their own.

BUT, faith really isn't complicated. My kids have it, especially my daughter, perhaps even more-so than I do.
And yet, they know drastically little really and have little comprehension of what it all means.
However, if what Christ says is true, then their faith is what I should have.
They may even "try to be good" and the like, thinking that'll get them points.
But, such misunderstandings don't I think remove their honest faith.

Kenny once had the faith. Perhaps he too had the faith of a child.
I'm sure that child is still in there somewhere, because being a child was an important element of Kenny's life like it is us all.
And yet, maybe, somewhere along the way someone or people caused the Kenny child to stumble and fall away.
I'm not blame shifting, since we all bear responsibility as adults for our decisions, but nonetheless, I'm getting to a question which is...

Could not Kenny be saved on account of his child-like faith that is still a part of who he is?
We are complicated as people, and I dare say barely really know ourselves or even what we believe.
We are so full of contradictions.

Although Ken consciously denies Christ right now, perhaps when all the chaff is burnt away there is actually that child buried beneath all of what life has thrown his way.
That child, who did have a faith in Christ and believed, which for some reason or another become dimmed and torn away.
Who is to really say? Only Christ knows.

There are two options as I see matters.
1) Kenny did not have the right kind of faith.
2) Kenny did have a child-like faith.

And if OSAS is correct, then Kenny will be born into a new imperishable body when resurrected.
But if OSAS is not correct, then who Kenny is now may hold greater weight than that child part of him.

In any case, I cannot rule out that Kenny does not still belong to Christ.
There are signs to me that he does (e.g., his being pulled here and remaining), and signs to be that he does not (e.g., his current conscious resistance to Christ).
So I cannot say whether or not Kenny did/didn't have faith in Christ and is as such saved/not saved.

At the end of the day I pray that the child is still there who trusts in Christ however small.
I also pray that he rediscovers and finds some peace in this life with Christ.
So I will lay the facts of the matter out and let him decide.

There is no need to protect our inability to understand how someone can have faith and then walk away.
At the end of the day I see theological motivations like OSAS versus falling away, being vomited out of God's mouth/insulting the Holy Spirit and all that other theological baggage.
But, more important in situations like this is the person, understanding and open dialogue rather than protecting our theology -- not that you're necessarily doing this,
but it is a hard (and sad) pill for me to swallow that someone actually did believe and walked away, such that I too want to try a justify through a "no true scotsman" or similar.

[RickD]

K,

I don't know if Kenny ever trusted Christ for salvation. I can only go by what he said. I asked him what a Christian is, to see if he really understands. As you can see, he said a Christian is one who believes Christ is the Son of God, and someone who tries to live by what Christ teaches.

That's not what makes one a believer. Perhaps at one time Kenny heard the gospel, but misunderstood it. Perhaps he never heard the gospel. Perhaps he just grew up going to church without ever trusting in Christ for salvation. That's pretty common.

I'm just saying, if Kenny doesn't trust in Christ he's eternally lost. Maybe Kenny had seeds planted throughout his life by his Christian family, and they're praying for him. I just don't know.

And there is no right or wrong kind of faith. The only thing wrong would be who the object of the faith is. If the faith/trust is not in Christ...

[Kenny]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

Ken,

Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and trying to live according to Christ's teachings, isn't the way to eternal life. And isn't the way to become a Christian. So, if I take you at your word, and believe you when you say that you used to be a Christian because "you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings", then I'd say that you were never a believer.

The bible says that one is a believer when one trusts in Christ for salvation. As simple as that is, it seems you completely missed it.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The word translated as "believes", is the Greek word pisteuō, which means:

to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

If one believes in Christ, one trusts that who he is, and what he has done is efficacious for salvation.

Just so you know, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, isn't how one becomes a believer/Christian. It's all about simple trust.

Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:

1) Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

2) Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

1) yes Kenny. Trusting Christ for salvation is all one needs to be saved/be a believer. Believing Christ is God/Son of God is part of trusting him. One has to know who he is and what he's done for our salvation.
No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

2) Kenny, I asked what you believe makes one a Christian/believer. You never mentioned trusting Christ, which is the only thing that actually makes one a believer.

And no Kenny. There aren't a hundred things that are necessary for one to be a believer. Just one. Trusting Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Now, because of your own words, I'm pretty sure you aren't saved. You seem to think that works save. That's a false gospel.

Kenny,
You need to trust in Christ alone. That's it.

[melanie]

Matt 18:1-7

• 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
  2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
  6“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
  7Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Mark 10:13-15

• 13And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Rick, you could look at it the other way.
Having children I realise that they're quite willing to embrace God.
It actually kind of seems second nature to them as soon as they start thinking about where they came from.
I'm raising them also with a correct understanding of Christ and God. Some day I know, perhaps in their later adolescence, that they'll be faced with a decision of their own.

BUT, faith really isn't complicated. My kids have it, especially my daughter, perhaps even more-so than I do.
And yet, they know drastically little really and have little comprehension of what it all means.
However, if what Christ says is true, then their faith is what I should have.
They may even "try to be good" and the like, thinking that'll get them points.
But, such misunderstandings don't I think remove their honest faith.

Kenny once had the faith. Perhaps he too had the faith of a child.
I'm sure that child is still in there somewhere, because being a child was an important element of Kenny's life like it is us all.
And yet, maybe, somewhere along the way someone or people caused the Kenny child to stumble and fall away.
I'm not blame shifting, since we all bear responsibility as adults for our decisions, but nonetheless, I'm getting to a question which is...

Could not Kenny be saved on account of his child-like faith that is still a part of who he is?
We are complicated as people, and I dare say barely really know ourselves or even what we believe.
We are so full of contradictions.

Although Ken consciously denies Christ right now, perhaps when all the chaff is burnt away there is actually that child buried beneath all of what life has thrown his way.
That child, who did have a faith in Christ and believed, which for some reason or another become dimmed and torn away.
Who is to really say? Only Christ knows.

There are two options as I see matters.
1) Kenny did not have the right kind of faith.
2) Kenny did have a child-like faith.

And if OSAS is correct, then Kenny will be born into a new imperishable body when resurrected.
But if OSAS is not correct, then who Kenny is now may hold greater weight than that child part of him.

In any case, I cannot rule out that Kenny does not still belong to Christ.
There are signs to me that he does (e.g., his being pulled here and remaining), and signs to be that he does not (e.g., his current conscious resistance to Christ).
So I cannot say whether or not Kenny did/didn't have faith in Christ and is as such saved/not saved.

At the end of the day I pray that the child is still there who trusts in Christ however small.
I also pray that he rediscovers and finds some peace in this life with Christ.
So I will lay the facts of the matter out and let him decide.

There is no need to protect our inability to understand how someone can have faith and then walk away.
At the end of the day I see theological motivations like OSAS versus falling away, being vomited out of God's mouth/insulting the Holy Spirit and all that other theological baggage.
But, more important in situations like this is the person, understanding and open dialogue rather than protecting our theology -- not that you're necessarily doing this,
but it is a hard (and sad) pill for me to swallow that someone actually did believe and walked away, such that I too want to try a justify through a "no true scotsman" or similar.

Beautiful K.
I loved this post!
I remember the faith I had as a child, absolute simple unquestioning trust. Then life comes along and strips away the simple and replaces it with all kinds of complicated.
I don't know whether Kenny truly trusted in Christ or not, and I see what you are saying Rick and why you would ask the questions you have. This is not directed at you but in response to K's post.
I think there is a lot more going with Kenny than what is revealed on here. He is not just here to argue with some Christians for the sake of it. He is genuinely seeking answers, looking for 'truth'. I think that says a lot. Whilst his head is still saying 'hmmm not so sure, or I don't think so', his spirit is leading him to seek answers. It would be in many ways easier to do what what so many others do and say 'what a crock of baloney' and go about their lives. There have been people in the time that I have been on this forum that come here just to argue and tell us how delusional we are, they never last long. They have their rant then leave or cross the line and get booted. Kenny is different. I think there is something more going on with him. Perhaps it is what K suggested, that faith he had as a child, that connection, how ever broken and damaged it may be is still edging him to be here, to ask questions, even if we don't like his answers at times or his unique reasoning.
I don't know, call me crazy, you probably wouldn't be wrong, but I think we just might be chillin' with him in heaven one day or at least I pray we will. My gut feeling tells me Kenny is a prodigal son who is lost to the world at this time but I have faith that God will lead him home.
I am not a universalist but I think there is so much more going on in the hearts of people than we ever can ever percieve on the outset. Sometimes the strongest resistance is a good sign, it shows a struggle, if there is a struggle not indifference then maybe God is pulling and they are just pushing. God will win, His will be done.
I think we will get an awesome surprise when we enter Gods Kingdom, when we see the most lowly, the least, the broken and the lost all brought with the price of Jesus' blood and the under the love and grace of our Father.

[melanie]

So, is it fair to say then, that you say you were a believer/Christian because you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings? Is that accurate?

Yes.

K

Ken,

Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and trying to live according to Christ's teachings, isn't the way to eternal life. And isn't the way to become a Christian. So, if I take you at your word, and believe you when you say that you used to be a Christian because "you believed Jesus was the Son of God, and you tried to live according to his teachings", then I'd say that you were never a believer.

The bible says that one is a believer when one trusts in Christ for salvation. As simple as that is, it seems you completely missed it.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The word translated as "believes", is the Greek word pisteuō, which means:

to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

If one believes in Christ, one trusts that who he is, and what he has done is efficacious for salvation.

Just so you know, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, isn't how one becomes a believer/Christian. It's all about simple trust.

Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

I think Ken that trusting Christ for salvation and trusting that He is the son of God go hand in hand.
The awesome beauty of Christianity is yes as a mature christian we should strive to live in accordance with Jesus' teaching which really boils down to love but it's not a qualifyer. Jesus came here for the sick, the lost and the sinners. The worst of us. That is who he reached out too. That is who he had compassion and mercy for. The helpless and the humble. Not the religious people of the time. I often wonder how it would go down in today's enviroment if Jesus was with us in person today. Would it be so different? Would the prideful and religious be so different to the Pharisees? Those that think they are 'living' the christian life and use their scritptual knowledge not to judge the actions of others but the salvation of others. Kenny sometimes Christians are the worst examples of Christ, myself included.
All we have to do is trust in Him.
Sometimes those with the most trust have the biggest hurdles and burdens, they are not those necessarily who appear 'christian' and religious on the outside. It's all about what's going on inside a person, and we are pretty good at hiding it and putting forward projected ideals of what we think we should be.
I call it Christian charades.

[EssentialSacrifice]

No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

This is in it's most simple version is incorrect. The simplest version is you believe in Christ, and good works are the fruits of that faith and love. You can't be saved by your good works, but if you don't perform good works after saying you understand Christ and wish to imitate Him proves you are not saved.

So, you do have to live according to Christ's teachings and by doing so, by doing the good works He expounded (charity, visit those in jail, feed the poor, heal the sick...) you are living proof of that Christian belief, faith in Christ. Those works are the way you are recognized as a true Christian.

St.Francis: preach the gospel, ... use words if you must !

I am much more comfortable with K's potential for Ken;

perhaps when all the chaff is burnt away there is actually that child buried beneath all of what life has thrown his way.
That child, who did have a faith in Christ and believed, which for some reason or another become dimmed and torn away.
Who is to really say? Only Christ knows.

Than this...

I'm just saying, if Kenny doesn't trust in Christ he's eternally lost

sorry Rick, but when people say things like this it feels like living by the law and not by grace and mercy. You, actually have no idea what is in the heart of God and what he knows about each and every one of us. I trust Him implicitly but will throw myself on His mercy as who I am and have been can never gain me entry into heaven without it. My trust in Him, His love, His mercy far outweighs my trust in my interpretation of the bible.

[Storyteller]

Only two people know what is in Kennys heart, him and God.

Who are we to judge whether he is saved or not? Only God knows that.

I think the fact that Ken is here, debating, and is willing to at least consider all possibilities is great.

Ken,
My honest opinion of what it means to be a Christian is simple for me. Believe in God and accept Christ as your Saviour. That`s it. Everything else comes with time and knowledge.

I shall start a new thread about this as I think it could throw up some interesting points. All I ask Ken is carry on asking questions, testing all this out and looking for the truth.

[Kenny]

Kenny wrote:

1) Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

2) Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

1) yes Kenny. Trusting Christ for salvation is all one needs to be saved/be a believer. Believing Christ is God/Son of God is part of trusting him. One has to know who he is and what he's done for our salvation.
No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

2) Kenny, I asked what you believe makes one a Christian/believer. You never mentioned trusting Christ, which is the only thing that actually makes one a believer.

And no Kenny. There aren't a hundred things that are necessary for one to be a believer. Just one. Trusting Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Now, because of your own words, I'm pretty sure you aren't saved. You seem to think that works save. That's a false gospel.

Kenny,
You need to trust in Christ alone. That's it.

So in theory, you can be the most evil monster, committing every atrocity imaginable with no intention or desire to change, but as long as you trust Christ, you get in?
You would be surprised at how many times I’ve heard believers claim people become atheists because they want to do wrong without consequence, when actually the opposite is true; as long as you believe and trust Christ, you can raise as much hell as your wicked heart desires and still get into heaven!
Thanks for your perspective.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:

1) Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

2) Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

1) yes Kenny. Trusting Christ for salvation is all one needs to be saved/be a believer. Believing Christ is God/Son of God is part of trusting him. One has to know who he is and what he's done for our salvation.
No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

2) Kenny, I asked what you believe makes one a Christian/believer. You never mentioned trusting Christ, which is the only thing that actually makes one a believer.

And no Kenny. There aren't a hundred things that are necessary for one to be a believer. Just one. Trusting Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Now, because of your own words, I'm pretty sure you aren't saved. You seem to think that works save. That's a false gospel.

Kenny,
You need to trust in Christ alone. That's it.

So in theory, you can be the most evil monster, committing every atrocity imaginable with no intention or desire to change, but as long as you trust Christ, you get in?
You would be surprised at how many times I’ve heard believers claim people become atheists because they want to do wrong without consequence, when actually the opposite is true; as long as you believe and trust Christ, you can raise as much hell as your wicked heart desires and still get into heaven!
Thanks for your perspective.

Ken

Kenny,

This shows even more that you don't understand what being a believer is about. Because if you truly were a believer, you'd understand that when one trusts Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells that person. And the indwelling Holy Spirit, who is God, is the One who changes the believer. It's not about having a desire to change. It's about God changing us.

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.


ES wrote:
This is in it's most simple version is incorrect. The simplest version is you believe in Christ, and good works are the fruits of that faith and love. You can't be saved by your good works, but if you don't perform good works after saying you understand Christ and wish to imitate Him proves you are not saved.

ES,

Read what you wrote again. On one hand, you say you can't be saved by your good works. And on the other hand, you said that if you don't perform good works, it proves you are not saved. So, by putting a condition on salvation(No good works equals proof that you are not saved), you are making good works a condition of salvation.

ES wrote:
So, you do have to live according to Christ's teachings and by doing so, by doing the good works He expounded (charity, visit those in jail, feed the poor, heal the sick...) you are living proof of that Christian belief, faith in Christ. Those works are the way you are recognized as a true Christian.

ES,
A Christian is one who has trusted Christ for salvation. A Christian is one who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of God, as a guarantee that one is saved. That's how God "recognizes" one as a Christian.
And in order to be a disciple of Christ, one would love his neighbor. But the good works done by a believer are NOT done to keep salvation. Good works are done as the duty of a disciple, out of love for God and man, and as a result of the working of the Holy Spirit in a believer.

RickD wrote:
I'm just saying, if Kenny doesn't trust in Christ he's eternally lost

ES wrote:
sorry Rick, but when people say things like this it feels like living by the law and not by grace and mercy. You, actually have no idea what is in the heart of God and what he knows about each and every one of us. I trust Him implicitly but will throw myself on His mercy as who I am and have been can never gain me entry into heaven without it. My trust in Him, His love, His mercy far outweighs my trust in my interpretation of the bible.

It feels like living by the law and not by grace and mercy? ES, we are saved by God's grace, through faith is Christ. If we don't have faith in Christ, we can't be saved. God made a way of salvation. Unless you are promoting universalism?

[EssentialSacrifice]

Read what you wrote again. On one hand, you say you can't be saved by your good works. And on the other hand, you said that if you don't perform good works, it proves you are not saved. So, by putting a condition on salvation(No good works equals proof that you are not saved), you are making good works a condition of salvation

No my friend, honestly no... i feel you put the cart before the horse here. What I am saying is if you are saved, then you take on the mantle of Christ, not by duty or design but by love. His whole reason for coming here was to promote the love of God. That love entails sacrifice and the sacrifice on a daily basis includes doing for others as you would have them do for you. Those are the good works of which I speak. They are the fruits of the salvational love God has put in your heart spiritually that exude physically in the way you treat others. The proof in the putting for salvation is the way you act and treat others. If you do not produce good fruits then it is a sign you have been saved in word only and not in the spirit. These (our)works are not a condition of salvation they are a byproduct of the love contained within salvation.

But the good works done by a believer are NOT done to keep salvation. Good works are done as the duty of a disciple

The only way to "keep" salvation is to continue to love God with all your heart and to love one another as you do yourself. This is unconditionally not related to good works but the good works are a biproduct of your love for God and fellow man. There is no duty involved. Duty is a "command" or "must do" law enforcement that has more to do with man made requirements than of the "shall do because it is love I love" for God's love. He is like a father in all respects and I want to show Him my love in all ways, not dutifully bowing to the requirements in the writing of His law but willfully bowing to the daily blossoming of His love for me. My reflection of love for Him as it is for His to me is gauged many ways including acts of good works serving Him and my fellow man.

It feels like living by the law and not by grace and mercy? ES, we are saved by God's grace, through faith is Christ. If we don't have faith in Christ, we can't be saved. God made a way of salvation.

It feels like law when it is considered duty and not personal choice. That personal choice is defined and painted by the amount of faith you have in Christ. If you don't have faith in Christ you cannot be saved, but if you do have faith in Christ, by God's made way of salvation, then your life will emanate that love by expressing itself in the ways Jesus asks James 2:14-17, by loving one another as you love God...

I will throw myself at the feet of His mercy and he will know of my desire for Him by the fruits I have shown in the lifetime He has given me. Good works for others count just as much as the love of a mother who holds her child just after scraping his knee. It's not just the thought that counts, it's the action of love that persuades.

I'm not promoting universalism Rick... unfortunately many , even most will not be saved but by no means does that mean I cannot work toward their salvation as I do my own. If my helping someone somehow brings them close to God and His works of salvation then I have performed the greatest act of love I can... and it is of good works.

[Kurieuo]

Kenny wrote:

1) Trust Christ for salvation; that’s it? Would you also agree one must accept Jesus as the son of God? Would you also agree on must attempt to live their lives according to his teachings? I’m sure you would.

2) Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said I didn’t trust Christ for salvation; that wasn’t even addressed in my response. I’m sure there are a hundred things that could be listed as necessary for Christian, with scriptures to back it up. I didn’t feel a need to list all hundred of them, I just gave a quick premiss of what I thought was necessary.

Ken

1) yes Kenny. Trusting Christ for salvation is all one needs to be saved/be a believer. Believing Christ is God/Son of God is part of trusting him. One has to know who he is and what he's done for our salvation.
No. One doesn't have to live according to Christ's teachings, in order to be saved. That would be a works based salvation, which is unbiblical.

2) Kenny, I asked what you believe makes one a Christian/believer. You never mentioned trusting Christ, which is the only thing that actually makes one a believer.

And no Kenny. There aren't a hundred things that are necessary for one to be a believer. Just one. Trusting Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

Now, because of your own words, I'm pretty sure you aren't saved. You seem to think that works save. That's a false gospel.

Kenny,
You need to trust in Christ alone. That's it.

So in theory, you can be the most evil monster, committing every atrocity imaginable with no intention or desire to change, but as long as you trust Christ, you get in?
You would be surprised at how many times I’ve heard believers claim people become atheists because they want to do wrong without consequence, when actually the opposite is true; as long as you believe and trust Christ, you can raise as much hell as your wicked heart desires and still get into heaven!
Thanks for your perspective.

Ken

Isn't one's "evil" just another's "good" and even pleasure?
Nothing more, and nothing less.

I feel you're more taking a dig at RickD, but in case your statements are intended as a generalisation of Christians and towards grace.

Desiring Christ leads to "trust in Christ" which contradicts "wicked heart desires much hell".
Take "believe [pisteuo] in your heart" as found in Romans 10:9-10:

• 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

• pisteuo
  1.to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
  a) of the thing believed
  i. to credit, have confidence
  b) in a moral or religious reference
  i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
  ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
  iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
  2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
  a) to be intrusted with a thing

Read over Romans 6 and chapter 7 Kenny, and you'll see Paul talks of spiritual conflict between flesh and spirit.
There is something that goes on in the spiritual man/woman in Christ and being conflicted (afflicted might be a better term) by their flesh.
To know Christ has our back, means we can be free to love others and show the same spirit of love and grace that God showed towards us in Christ.

One Christian may be caught up in porn, another the drink, still another drugs, but who are you to judge them especially when your worldview doesn't provide an absolute standard by which to judge?
The fact is, such are often very conflicted within themselves. Just look up some moral questions coming from Christians feeling guilt about this or that.
We struggle, and even love in our flesh certain sins, that is the human condition.
BUT, we desire spiritually what is good and what God desires and so acknowledge our sin,
seek forgiveness and as much as we can within our afflicted spirits desire and try to change.

However, you do know without God, even Hitler is a moral, good and even saintly person?
It just depends on who you talk to. Again, I'll repeat that without God or some external measure, one person's evil and another's good. Nothing more or less.