new study on nde's says they are real

[Audie]

Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.

Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?

[Audie]

...If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?

Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it.As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?

You are simply making statements of facts not in evidence, non responsive to what I said.

Why bother?

This is in direct context to what you stated and is on topic...

Your question - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

Was answered based upon the empirical evidence that all human beings will face one day - you will die. You cannot escape it, nor can I. This thread's topic is on the afterlife and what happens after one dies. Therefore my response is certainly on topic. You will find out one day Audie - you will and at that time you will not be able to use verbal or written semantics to wiggle out of the final reality you will face.

So I responded appropriately:

One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?

Many years ago, I held similar views as you. Looking back, I could put most Christians in their their place with logic and reason schemes. However I met a few that I could not shake off because their words were penetrating. One such person once hauntingly said to me: One day, you will find out...

Another, a new Christian, who was once an atheist, said to me after walking across an intersection, "Bryan, see this, you are at a crossroads, I am heading right towards life (he was heading to a bible study) and you are going left (I was heading to a party). One day, you'll find yourself at another crossroads, make the right turn, will you..."

He then walked off. He recently converted to Christ and was once one of the biggest atheist and badest dude. We used to hang out together. After he became saved, he witnessed to us and we made fun of his faith but stopped because what he had was real. He was a real believer...not a phony.

I met a few folks who challenged my way of thinking that there was no God, no afterlife, no nothing. Like you, I argued against faith never realizing that I had faith in my self as my personal guiding rule. Never realized that the faith I had in myself violated my own arguments against Christian faith proving faith exist and is indispensable to the human condition. In fact, during that time years ago, my own guiding rules convicted me because I could not even live up to my own standards.

Then on day, I drank bad water, died, and by God's grace alone, I was allowed to return and discovered how true Jesus' statement is: ...neither will they be persuaded though one rise form the dead (Luke 16:31 NKJV)

That does not bother me in the least because I now know Jesus and He knows me.

Therefore, one day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?
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Ok, again noted in bold are facts not in evidence. You might find out, and you might not.
I might find out that the muz are right, and Im to hang by my hair in eternal fire for my sin of going absout without covering my hair.

do you do I does anyone know? No, the do not, so lets not pretend they do. Its a belief, a faith, a conviction.
Not knowledge.

Earlier, I said....If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?

Regarding the above, I said, does anyone know? Your post is 100% unresponsive to my observations.
All you did was claim to know that there is this god / afterlife thing, which you do not know.

[Storyteller]

Um, Audie....

I think having died, seen and met Christ and come back B.W probably does know.

[Audie]

Um, Audie....

I think having died, seen and met Christ and come back B.W probably does know.

Earlier I noted that "dead" is here defined as "clinically dead".

Do you think a person is dead when every single cell of their body is still alive?

Do you think we have such a deep understanding of what goes on in dreams, and otherwise have a fully adequate grasp of the functioning of the human brain to deduce, from certain of its behaviours, profound insights into the deepest mysteries of the universe and all existence?

It looks to me as if that is the claim being made in this thread.


Joseph Smith was visited many times by angels, who told him many things, then led him to a cave in upstate New York, where he found gold books detailing the doings of Jesus and his people in American after the execution.

He showed the books to people who signed their names to sworn testimony, before God, that they saw and hefted the books.

J Smith then translated the books, with supernatural help, and when he was done the angel took the books.

So I guess he would know.

What is wrong with this story?

[Storyteller]

The fact Smith had a vision rather than dying and actually going to Heaven (or Hell in B.W`s case)

[Audie]

The fact Smith had a vision rather than dying and actually going to Heaven (or Hell in B.W`s case)

So, Moses and various other "prophets' are not to be believed because they didnt (clinically) die, but got a vision whiie they were still (clinically) alive?

[1over137]

Joseph Smith - one prideful guy claiming something https://carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes
Apostles, prophets - all humbly testify of one God

[Philip]

Audie: "Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?

Aha, an important distinction. Scripture's truth stands apart from various interpretations that are faulty. That changes not a bit of its truth. Scholarly TRANSLATIONS of Scripture are by far in agreement as to the original texts.

Audie: Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded.

But if anyone else said the things that He did, that believed they were GOD, believed they were worthy of worship, made key claims He undoubtedly KNEW would lead to His death, to His followers' deaths if they persisted - ANY such person would have to be mad. UNLESS He was Who He claimed to be. Do you know anything about prophecy, of how NO person could just show up and fulfill so much of it? Read the writings of the Apostles - do they SOUND like crazy people, ones willing to die for a lie they clearly KNEW the truth of?

Audie: Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.

If that is what you think, you haven't studied the NT very much! Nor have you much studied it's impact upon society, law, Western Civilization.

Audie: J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.

The empire Jesus brought down (radically CHANGED) was one that was once violently against Christianity, that constantly harassed it, killed, beat Christians - even for sport in the arena - changed to one that accepted it - to the point of declaring it the official religion of Rome. Of course, the Emperor was crafty - why not simply try to co-opt it for political gain. Not to mention, Christianity is NOT a "religion." But make no mistake, this would never have happened unless Christianity had exploded in immense numbers, this despite the severe repercussions for those claiming Christ.

[Audie]

Joseph Smith - one prideful guy claiming something https://carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes
Apostles, prophets - all humbly testify of one God

A few million believers would not agree with this opinion aka statement of facts not in evidence.

[Audie]

Audie: "Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?

Aha, an important distinction. Scripture's truth stands apart from various interpretations that are faulty. That changes not a bit of its truth. Scholarly TRANSLATIONS of Scripture are by far in agreement as to the original texts.

Hmm. I need this explained. All reading of anything requires what educators call "decoding", one interprets what he sees on paper. It may be that every bit of the bible is "true" in one sense or another of the word.
A translation is gut one part of the interpretation. IF one had "the original" it still has to be interpreted as to what is meant.

Now, here I am going to be tiresome, but its important to me, as it affects the credibility of what you say about the bible and its truth.


Do you understand the bible to be "true", as in factual, accurate, literal, when it apparently speaks of a world wide flood wiping out all life save for a boatload?

Audie: Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded.

But if anyone else said the things that He did, that believed they were GOD, believed they were worthy of worship, made key claims He undoubtedly KNEW would lead to His death, to His followers' deaths if they persisted - ANY such person would have to be mad. UNLESS He was Who He claimed to be. Do you know anything about prophecy, of how NO person could just show up and fulfill so much of it? Read the writings of the Apostles - do they SOUND like crazy people, ones willing to die for a lie they clearly KNEW the truth of?

I dont think we are well qualified to say what is or is not sane, especially from the remove of two millenia.

Whether or not events actually transpired as recorded is a matter of opinion. My take is that whatever happened was steadily improved upon as time went by after the events.

Audie: Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.

If that is what you think, you haven't studied the NT very much! Nor have you much studied it's impact upon society, law, Western Civilization.

Ok... what deep wisdom are you talking about? All of his purported sayings, if read, would take about 2 1/2 minutes.

Audie: J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.

The empire Jesus brought down (radically CHANGED)

The empire stood for another 500 years, hardly brought down. And other than that it stopped killing Christians, it kept up its ways.

was one that was once violently against Christianity, that constantly harassed it, killed, beat Christians - even for sport in the arena - changed to one that accepted it - to the point of declaring it the official religion of Rome. Of course, the Emperor was crafty - why not simply try to co-opt it for political gain. Not to mention, Christianity is NOT a "religion." But make no mistake, this would never have happened unless Christianity had exploded in immense numbers, this despite the severe repercussions for those claiming Christ

One guy decided ti adopt it as the official religion. LDS has grown enormously despite persecution and, without an emperor imposing it. Nor yet by kings and popes who would torture those who dont take to it.


Now, back to the bible being "true".
True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.



.

[Philip]

Audie: Now, back to the bible being "true". True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.

The Bible IS true in all it says that is MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS historical or scientific fact. But the problem is that many misunderstand and don't realize that is also has elements that are meant as poetry, are symbolic, allegorical/metaphorical in nature. Just as we speak in such ways, just using different terminology and have different contemporary knowledge, so did those writing Scripture. And just because it is inspired by God doesn't mean it was all meant to be LITERALLY true. It also doesn't mean that if we read of a character doing something in Scripture that this means God approved of it. So, there are important aspects of studying Scripture.

Ah, the flood; the TIME length of days in Genesis. Many Bible scholars can and DO have reasonable disagreements about these things - as the way they are written aren't necessarily what we might think. The "day" issue has been redundantly discussed on this forum. Many Christian Hebrew Scholars don't believe that the text was meant to convey literal days. As for the flood, many scholars also believe that it was a regional flood, as mankind have not yet spread worldwide, and so the "world" that was flooded, covered the extent to which mankind had spread to that point in time.

[PaulSacramento]

Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.

Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?

Non sequitur.

You do realize that Christianity is not a "moral code" right?
I mean it HAS a moral code but the Gospel is NOT a moral code.
It is a path to salvation and redemption IN Christ, it is about what Christ DID not what WE do.

[PaulSacramento]

There are, TECHNICALLY, degrees of death of course.
There is brain dead in which the body can be kept alive BUT the person has NO brain activity, This state of death is the most telling in regards to NDE's because there is NO BRAIN activity so there is NO possibility of any "dream" or Hallucination or anything like that.
Then there is "clinically dead".
This is when a person has stooped breathing AND blood has stopped circulating.
A person can sometimes be revived and the brain is still active for some time ( no one knows for sure how long or how active, but it is still active).

The tricky part for NDE's that happen when a person is only clinically dead ( silly to use the term only, I know) it can be argued that because there is some brain activity that the person MAY be hallucination or whatever.

[Audie]

Audie: Now, back to the bible being "true". True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.

The Bible IS true in all it says that is MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS historical or scientific fact. But the problem is that many misunderstand and don't realize that is also has elements that are meant as poetry, are symbolic, allegorical/metaphorical in nature. Just as we speak in such ways, just using different terminology and have different contemporary knowledge, so did those writing Scripture. And just because it is inspired by God doesn't mean it was all meant to be LITERALLY true. It also doesn't mean that if we read of a character doing something in Scripture that this means God approved of it. So, there are important aspects of studying Scripture.

Ah, the flood; the TIME length of days in Genesis. Many Bible scholars can and DO have reasonable disagreements about these things - as the way they are written aren't necessarily what we might think. The "day" issue has been redundantly discussed on this forum. Many Christian Hebrew Scholars don't believe that the text was meant to convey literal days. As for the flood, many scholars also believe that it was a regional flood, as mankind have not yet spread worldwide, and so the "world" that was flooded, covered the extent to which mankind had spread to that point in time.

I trust nobody really thinks Jesus is / was a lamb.
There are differences of opinion on other things that may or may not be literal.

I asked earlier..Do you understand the bible to be "true", as in factual, accurate, literal, when it apparently speaks of a world wide flood wiping out all life save for a boatload?

The word "true" seems very flexible.

[Audie]

Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.

Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?

Non sequitur.

You do realize that Christianity is not a "moral code" right?
I mean it HAS a moral code but the Gospel is NOT a moral code.
It is a path to salvation and redemption IN Christ, it is about what Christ DID not what WE do.

You were speaking of what is true. The moral code is "true" regardless.
If there is no Jesus, is the moral code false?