Kenny wrote:Kurieuo wrote:I feel you're more taking a dig at RickD, but in case your statements are intended as a generalisation of Christians and towards grace.
I wasn’t taking a dig at him, I was just trying to find out where he is coming from.Obviously just because a person believes and trust Jesus doesn’t mean they are going to stop sinning and doing wrong. To believe and trust does not automatically equal good behavior.
I guess my skepticism is based upon the fact that over the years I’ve seen people trust Jesus, have faith, believe, etc. etc. but they continue to beat their wives, abuse their children, and unapologetic as they use their position at work to cause harm to innocent people simply because they have the wrong skin color. I guess the idea that some feel they can commit evil acts free of consequences as long as they trust and believe the right way; bothers me.
...
... I'm talking about the person who has no desire to change, yet they trust and believe.
Issues of battery and the like often run deep.
The treatment in your words here is rather superficial though, obviously intended to make a potent point against an easy faith-ism Christianity.
By "superficial" I mean you're not examining the whole person's life (i.e., the person beating), but rather one particularly horrible element.
Take for example what war can do to a person, and their family.
"
Let God send any war veteran to Hell for beating their wife or children once they come back" -- you didn't say that, but is that something like you would want?
Or, the boy who copped abuse growing up in the foster system while the rest of society didn't care, who then commits the same abuse when they grow up.
God doesn't work with Christians -- God works with people.
All Christians are people and so are affected mentally and physically the same as others.
The message of grace is that God doesn't wait for us to change and be good.
If God did, then all of us would be condemned, for none are righteous.
- 6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)
God meets us all where we are at, even the worst of humanity for before him there is no difference -- all of us stand guilty.
I'd expect for the most part, many Christians would make a turn in their life, and you hear stories all the time of such changes for the better.
I'd expect for the most part, that even if a Christian sins their conscience would greatly trouble them given their heart is for Christ.
If they didn't, then do they really believe in their heart? What does Romans 10:9-10 say again?
- 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
BUT, I can't know the heart of such people. Do you? Things are often complicated.
I said of you in my previous posts here, I do not claim to know whether you yourself are saved or not.
Even despite your conscious objections to Christ and God, perhaps beneath it all there is still that child and child-like faith in Christ.
So, if I cannot be sure about you, then I cannot be sure of those you mention. In my eyes you both are going against God but in different ways.
Finally, if they think it is fine for them to continue beating or doing bad things (which I doubt, because Christian or not, people know it's not alright to beat others),
then hopefully the law governing a society will catch up and intervene, and then the abuser will suffer the due consequences of their actions.
Paul himself sees governing authorities
generally-speaking as established by God.
- 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. (Romans 13:1-4)
But, heaven and hell isn't about legalities. Such are not even really about good and bad.
Rather it's about who a fully righteous God can have stand in His presence.
And the answer to that is
NOONE unless wrapped in Christ's righteousness.
Kenny wrote:This may sound like a silly question, but if trusting is all it takes, why even have a day of judgment? Why not just say those who trust go to Heaven, and those who don’t go to Hell? What’s really to judge?
Well, many kind of believe that in a way.
Have you heard of there being two judgments?
Those who are in Christ, who Christ takes to Himself to mediate on behalf of, will pass from judgement that leads to eternal death from God, to enter into eternal life with Christ.
And yet, all are said to stand before the judgement seat of Christ --
- For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor 5:10)
Some believe in two judgements.
At Christ's judgement, one receives recompense for what they did whether good or bad.
I once didn't believe in "rewards". My own parents were theologically against it, but I do see justification for such.
My thinking is that it may work something like this...
For the abuser of which you mention, while they may inherit eternal life if they truly believe in their heart, then having their life re-played out they could bear the shame of their deeds everlastingly.
Even if all is forgiven, and they get to remain in the presence of God through Christ, they'll have this shame. And since they are no longer afflicted but fully healed and conformed to Christ, they may feel the full gravity of their past life.
NOTE: I don't really know what the "recompense" really is -- perhaps others here have looked into it further -- I'm just taking a stab at what seems logical to me.
So then, perhaps those who help lead others to Christ or really did love and help others here, will be praised and honoured.
It makes sense that those who also inherited eternal life would be thankful to those who helped guide them in this life.
Therefore while some saved will feel shame, even great shame over many deeds, others saved will be respected and esteemed.
Since possessions really don't count as far as I'm aware in the new life, then these immaterial things to me seem like the most sensible and natural rewards.
Yet, those in Christ will clearly pass from
the Judgement that leads to an everlasting death from God.
- John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Something I feel often burdened by in this life is that I don't do more.
I'll be looking back on this life and constantly thinking about how much more I could have done for others. What a poor excuse I am...
And yet, I know that I may still be forgiven, it's my own consciousness I'll live with everlastingly.
BUT, in any case those in Christ will pass from judgement that leads to an everlasting death from God
-- however, it still seems according to Scripture that Christians still enter into a sort of extended judgement.
This is not something I dare say a lot of Christians would want to hear.
Many are probably even unaware to such. I know my parents shunned the thought.
And so I did too, thought it was silly. I've only re-reflected upon it occasionally only in recent years.
I felt Scripture was scarce on such, however strong trains of thought definitely appear to be in Scripture for this.