new study on nde's says they are real

[bippy123]

Proof of NDE and disproof of ToE would be quite the rivals for greatest discovery of all time.

For one, a carved human footprint in Cretaceous limestone is enough.

For the other, anecdotes will do.

Honestly, people in America!

Here we go again. Sam parnia aware study was done under strict protocols and quote a few of the nde EXPERIENCERS had conscious awareness during a time of non brain functionality.
These are not anecdotal experiences anymore. Audie basically picks and chooses what she defines as anecdotes and what she doesn't define as anecdotes . This is why I make the correct claim that atheism is a religion .

And as far as evolution , it can never be falsified because evolutionists will always keep pushing the goalposts back.
When the fruit fly experiment failed they said " well fruit flies never evolved much so why would causing massive mutation in them cause any fruitful changes "
It's a historical science audie.

I can choose not to deal with the evidences for evolution the same way you are doing for ndes and claim that there is nothing repeatable in a lab , that it's all anecdotal but then you would accuse me of being non scientific
Pot calling the kettle black yet again

[bippy123]

Audie: or like human brains, are just receivers.

OK, Min, I'll bite: what does "just receivers" mean?

From a Christian point of view, human beings are physical/spiritual beings; animals are purely physical beings.

But IF an actual experience is had during a NDE, in which all brain functionality, heartbeat, blood pressure, etc. is ZIP on the screen, this means that the experience was entirely independent of the physical. It also begs the question of where the MEMORY of the experience came from, how was it transmitted and received into the subsequently functioning brain in the person that returns from what appeared to be certain death? As God can operate independently of the physical and biological laws and mechanisms He normally allows during our lifetimes, and as human beings are physical ones with a spirit within, who's to say that the NDE wasn't an entirely spiritual experience in which the memory of the experience (whether real, imagined or deceptively so) was supernaturally put back in the subsequently functioning brain. The big question is how was the memory retained in a brain that wasn't functioning at the time of the NDEXPERIENCE.

[Audie]

Proof of NDE and disproof of ToE would be quite the rivals for greatest discovery of all time.

For one, a carved human footprint in Cretaceous limestone is enough.

For the other, anecdotes will do.

Honestly, people in America!

Here we go again. Sam parnia aware study was done under strict protocols and quote a few of the nde EXPERIENCERS had conscious awareness during a time of non brain functionality.
These are not anecdotal experiences anymore. Audie basically picks and chooses what she defines as anecdotes and what she doesn't define as anecdotes . This is why I make the correct claim that atheism is a religion .

And as far as evolution , it can never be falsified because evolutionists will always keep pushing the goalposts back.
When the fruit fly experiment failed they said " well fruit flies never evolved much so why would causing massive mutation in them cause any fruitful changes "
It's a historical science audie.

I can choose not to deal with the evidences for evolution the same way you are doing for ndes and claim that there is nothing repeatable in a lab , that it's all anecdotal but then you would accuse me of being non scientific
Pot calling the kettle black yet again

Who could ask for a better demo of "non scientific / doesnt know from science" than in bold above?

One thing I've always noted about evolution deniers, they havent the foggiest what it is they are arguing against. Strawmen, misrepresentation, distortion, fabrication but never on topic. Evolution would be a cinch to disprove, if it happened to be false. Nothing could be that massive/ massively wrong without it being kinda easy to demonstrate.

I didnt claim that fake footprints or anecdotes are the sum of what the proponents of these spectacular discoveries have to offer.

Are you claiming, btw, that it has been proven that the mind can detach from the body?

[Audie]

Audie: or like human brains, are just receivers.

OK, Min, I'll bite: what does "just receivers" mean?

From a Christian point of view, human beings are physical/spiritual beings; animals are purely physical beings.

But IF an actual experience is had during a NDE, in which all brain functionality, heartbeat, blood pressure, etc. is ZIP on the screen, this means that the experience was entirely independent of the physical. It also begs the question of where the MEMORY of the experience came from, how was it transmitted and received into the subsequently functioning brain in the person that returns from what appeared to be certain death? As God can operate independently of the physical and biological laws and mechanisms He normally allows during our lifetimes, and as human beings are physical ones with a spirit within, who's to say that the NDE wasn't an entirely spiritual experience in which the memory of the experience (whether real, imagined or deceptively so) was supernaturally put back in the subsequently functioning brain. The big question is how was the memory retained in a brain that wasn't functioning at the time of the NDEXPERIENCE.

Ha. I was right. You guys dont want science and evidence,you want "amen" and, "verily".

[Kurieuo]

Always the same 'ol same 'ol.

[Audie]

Always the same 'ol same 'ol.

yup, when its not "amen", its "yes verily yes".

[Morny]

Proof of NDE and disproof of ToE would be quite the rivals for greatest discovery of all time.

I'm wearing orthopedic shoes -- I stand corrected.

[Morny]

Proof of NDE and disproof of ToE would be quite the rivals for greatest discovery of all time.

For one, a carved human footprint in Cretaceous limestone is enough.

For the other, anecdotes will do.

Honestly, people in America!

Sam parnia aware study was done under strict protocols and quote a few of the nde EXPERIENCERS had conscious awareness during a time of non brain functionality.

Succinctly state Dr. Parnia's claim.
Where is his raw data and protocols?
Who replicated his results?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Morny]

Brain functionality in species from worms to humans forms a progression. Why give human brains special non-physical status?

The answer is, scientifically speaking ( ie: direct observation), quite obvious.

Evidence, please.

You have a peculiar notion of "obvious". You may be correct that human brains require a non-physical component, but a Fields Medalist and numerous Nobel Prize winners disagree with your adjective "obvious".

When you disagree with such an august group on some belief, you have a chance of being correct. But when that group disagrees that your belief is "obvious", you need to change your criteria for what is "obvious".

[PaulSacramento]

Brain functionality in species from worms to humans forms a progression. Why give human brains special non-physical status?

The answer is, scientifically speaking ( ie: direct observation), quite obvious.

Evidence, please.

You have a peculiar notion of "obvious". You may be correct that human brains require a non-physical component, but a Fields Medalist and numerous Nobel Prize winners disagree with your adjective "obvious".

When you disagree with such an august group on some belief, you have a chance of being correct. But when that group disagrees that your belief is "obvious", you need to change your criteria for what is "obvious".

Are you suggesting that these scientists are saying that the brain of worms have non-physical properties ?

[Audie]

Where is the line between animal brain and human?

[PaulSacramento]

Where is the line between animal brain and human?

A fascinating question, some would argue reason and rational.
Humans can go beyond natural instinct and impulses ( both good and bad of course).

[Audie]

Where is the line between animal brain and human?

A fascinating question, some would argue reason and rational.
Humans can go beyond natural instinct and impulses ( both good and bad of course).

And probably some animals do.

The central q here to me tho, is, if the human mind is this "receptical" (please, its not my idea) then, which part of it? All of it? And animal minds are entirely physical?

[PaulSacramento]

Where is the line between animal brain and human?

A fascinating question, some would argue reason and rational.
Humans can go beyond natural instinct and impulses ( both good and bad of course).

And probably some animals do.

The central q here to me tho, is, if the human mind is this "receptical" (please, its not my idea) then, which part of it? All of it? And animal minds are entirely physical?

The question of non-physical properties of any brain can't be answered by science because science only works the observable and quantifiable.
It becomes a question of philosophy and, perhaps, psychology and para-psychology.
We know by observation that humans can function, mentally, on an abstract level far outside the simply instinctive and rational level.
Technology is an example of this, as is the medical fields that deal with the mind and not just the brain.
You simply do not find in any other living animal that we know if, that capacity for self exploration, to think outside the parameters of existence.
Primates are amazing similar in terms of instinct and instinctive reasoning and even learned reasoning BUT, that I am aware of, they have not shown the capacity or ability to go beyond that.
In short, you don't get primate philosophers or physicists.

[Audie]

Where is the line between animal brain and human?

A fascinating question, some would argue reason and rational.
Humans can go beyond natural instinct and impulses ( both good and bad of course).

And probably some animals do.

The central q here to me tho, is, if the human mind is this "receptical" (please, its not my idea) then, which part of it? All of it? And animal minds are entirely physical?

The question of non-physical properties of any brain can't be answered by science because science only works the observable and quantifiable.
It becomes a question of philosophy and, perhaps, psychology and para-psychology.
We know by observation that humans can function, mentally, on an abstract level far outside the simply instinctive and rational level.
Technology is an example of this, as is the medical fields that deal with the mind and not just the brain.
You simply do not find in any other living animal that we know if, that capacity for self exploration, to think outside the parameters of existence.
Primates are amazing similar in terms of instinct and instinctive reasoning and even learned reasoning BUT, that I am aware of, they have not shown the capacity or ability to go beyond that.
In short, you don't get primate philosophers or physicists.

The line in bold is kind of an odd echo of this from the bip...And as far as evolution , it can never be falsified because evolutionists will always keep pushing the goalposts back.

Not that I consider it true in either case.

As soon as someone has been able to see something not in the room, or that is otherwise impossible to have found out about without leaving his physical body, there is will be. Dont you think so? And there must be other ways.

Heck, math is not physical but it sure is detectable.

An interesting bit I picked up yesterday, experiments done with people hooked up to electrodes that would detect activity in the motor portions of the brain.

Activity is to decide to pick up a ball, or whatever. Just sit around, then decide to pick it,up, and proceed to do so. Then again and again, at intervals.

So...?

Well, what was found was that invariably there would be activity in the motor area BEFORE the subject pushed the button signifying that he'd decided to pick up the ball.

Before.

Now, that is weird. What might it mean? Who is really in charge?