Studies that say NDEs are not real.

[B. W.]

Below is a quote from Journal on Near death Studies from the Discussion section:

Second, the cardiac arrests induced in ICD testing may have been too brief in duration to permit near-death experiences to unfold. There certainly have been reports of near-death experiences in the absence of cardiac arrest (Owens, Cook, and Stevenson, 1990; Stevenson, Cook, Journal of Near-Death Studies ndst-25-02-03.3d 6/2/07 18:12:14 95 BRUCE GREYSON ET AL. 95 and McClean-Rice, 1989–1990), and duration of cardiac arrest has been reported to be unrelated to the occurrence of NDEs (van Lommel, van Wees, Meyers, and Elfferich, 2001).

However, it is conceivable that patients undergoing ICD testing are not in cardiac arrest long enough to induce NDEs reliably. In EEG studies of patients similar to ours undergoing ICD implantation and testing, the mean time from induction of ventricular fibrillation or last systolic blood pressure to onset of EEG change suggestive of cerebral ischemia was 10–11 seconds (Clute and Levy, 1990; deVries, Bakker, Visser, Diephuis, and van Huffelen, 1998), which exceeded the mean duration of cardiac
arrest among participants in this study. It is plausible that the ICDs’ efficiency terminated cardiac arrest in these patients before near death experiences had the time to develop.

Third, the use of the pre-anesthetic sedative midazolam may have made it difficult for participants who did have near-death experiences to remember them following the procedure. The use of general anesthetics in these patients would not in itself preclude subsequent reports of near-death experiences, as many patients describe such
experiences under general anesthesia (Kelly, Greyson, and Kelly, 2006). Some patients can recall events that occurred while they were ostensibly anesthetized (Cheek, 1964, 1966; Ghoneim and Block, 1997; Levinson, 1965), and the dissociative anesthetic ketamine may induce events similar to near-death experiences (Jansen, 1997).

However, the sedative midazolam that was used to premedicate patients in this study characteristically causes anterograde amnesia independent of its sedative or anesthetic effect (Veselis, Reinsel, and Feshchenko,1997, 2001). If midazolam does indeed inhibit recall of near-death experiences, in contrast to other sedating medications, that distinction may suggest a biochemical pathway associated with such experiences.

Medicine Virginia Edu article

As you can see from this non-bias study there is at least some honesty regarding the use drugs that produce anterograde amnesia as well as short duration of NDE in a clinical study do have effects on those that report not experiencing anything.

This is was what I was referring too. Next, from the discussion section more test should be done to confirm anterograde amnesia drugs produced and duration of NDE. However to prolong a death state is fatal for those participating in these clinical test so that duration in reality cannot be tested. If Long duration test do occur, such as with hypo/hyperthermic treatment of cardiac patient, drugs that cause anterograde amnesia are used because if not, the patient's body/nervous system could not take the shock of such long duration treatment to needed to test duration of NDE.

Hope this helps...

Next, Audie, you and fellow atheist are defending a state of nothingness. I have a right to point this out for I once was an atheist like yourself and defended Nothingness when you die with the same venom you use here.

I too used to cite that Human beings created religion to control society’s base nature failing to realize that no human being really wants or desires their own base nature stopped and not allowed to express itself freely. In truthfulness, societal norms exalt base nature of humanity not the other way around. The ancient pagan religions that were created by man exalted depravity as the norm. Some simple examples: ancient Greek culture the shrewd trickster sexual immorality was exalted. Rome, iron domination. Should I go back further to those who burned their babies alive in the fires of Molech? Or dancing in bisexual orgies? Bestiality? Or historical facts how sexual transmitted diseases started and effects on DNA? How about the partaking of substances to induce altered states and the effects on human DNA on future generations?

How about the modern equivalence of these espoused by the prevailing culture: adultery, divorce, single motherhood and or murder of babies under the disguise of choice? What about the slide into lawlessness extolled now as greatest virtues? How about alcohol and substance abuse and the effects on DNA to future generations? How about how dominance and control by groups over others works through ridicule and unjust name calling - or revenge? The wrongly comparing homosexual love as equal and superior to a husband and wife love for each oher? Men love differently than women love and therefore logic and reason points this out: homosexual love cannot be in the same class because men and women love differently. Again, Homosexual love produces death to a species and death and nothingness is thus exalted as normal. Do a clinical study on this, put 20 homosexual men on an isolated island and provide all water, shelter, and food needs met and Lesbian women on another island 100 miles apart and come back in 100 years - will any progeny be made? NO - just death proved. Is that superior form of love or the same as a husband and wife love for each other? One produces life and other death...

Atheism defends a culture of death based upon nothingness. Therefore, if your nothingness is superior and all there is, then it does not matter how altruistic one is as it is pointless. It is a far greater virtue then to live as debased and immoral as you desire - no real point to anything at all - all is meaningless. Mom telling one to live disciplined with no joy - just performance - is meaningless too. Heck - all life is meaningless. Wow - how superior and what good is that superior form of thought anyway?

Audie, you have that meaninglessness starring you in the face every day and atheism can only defend meaninglessness nothingness. Due to people straying into debasedness and designing philosophic and quasi religions to justify this debasedness is what is meant by missing the mark of God's best - which we define as what sin really is. God designed humanity for far better things. Humanity chose debasement as the the best form of good and true goodness as the new evil. Humanity is not improving or evolving into a better state, the murder of the unborn point out humanities hypocrisy.

Atheist like to put God on trial and claim he should never have been absolutely fair and just to allow freedom of thought/reason/conscience never realizing they are defending the tyranny of dictatorship of a strong leader like Chairman Mao, or Stalin, or Caesar to control and not even complain about that that. You cite that God a moral monster dictator because he is absolutely fair and just allowing freedom of thought/reason/conscience to humanity? Who gave you that right to make that claim and who wants you to turn away form such nonsense?

Who came upon this one insignificant speak of sand midst all the sand of the universe to identify with humanity just to point out how we betray each other, mock, put on trial, control, dominate, beat, abandon, reject, break each other hearts, murder relationships, neglect true needs, etc, in order to restore us back to his original design for humanity. Who would do this? What craziness would have someone come and point this out so we can voluntarily become reconcile back to our creator as changed beings who now have life and no longer nothingness?

Sitting in the back seat of a car, a mother telling her daughter to tuff it up, don't cry - smart girls don't cry - has an effect on the child - does it not - Audie? The child simply wants to be held by her mother but that embrace is thwarted to teach - smartness - don't cry - life is hard. That has an effect does it not?

What of divorce, abuse, neglect that we cause and blame god for doing? Into this rottenness, Jesus came to set us free.

Audie, you said you do not want to be a Christian - yet - you are still here. However here on this form we are not telling you, like the mother, to shut up, smart girls don't cry. Nor do we withhold a warm embrace of fellowship no matter what you say. Jesus extends his hands to you and desire to heal where your heart has been broken and seeks to mend it and for that reason - you keep choosing nothingness why what is the real reason for the chip on your shoulder?

You and I will face death, none of us knows when our own day will come, but it will. On behalf of those here on this forum - we know Jesus and He knows us. What we have, we extend to you, maybe one day you will realize whose face you are really slapping... Choice is yours - Nothingness or True Life...
-
-
-

[PaulSacramento]

For some, nothingness is not a bad thing.
Nothing to answer for, no more responsibilities, no accountability, etc...
In short, some can view the belief that there is nothing after death as a source of comfort.

[Storyteller]

Those last two posts really moved me, for different reasons.

BW... for me, that was a really thought provoking post. Seriously, once you get past the gruffness of it, there is a real beauty there.

Paul...I find that heart breakingly sad. That depth of despair.

For me, there is always hope. There is God. God offers hope. There is a reason, a purpose for life.
The sheer miracle of life screams out Creator.

If there was no God, there would be no hope, no point.

Christ died to show us there is hope. All we have to do is admit it.

[PaulSacramento]

Those last two posts really moved me, for different reasons.

BW... for me, that was a really thought provoking post. Seriously, once you get past the gruffness of it, there is a real beauty there.

Paul...I find that heart breakingly sad. That depth of despair.

For me, there is always hope. There is God. God offers hope. There is a reason, a purpose for life.
The sheer miracle of life screams out Creator.

If there was no God, there would be no hope, no point.

Christ died to show us there is hope. All we have to do is admit it.

You need to understand that for some people the notion of "hope" is not the same as the way Christians view it, same goes for faith.
They see those things as negatives, not positives.
The redefine them to suit their purpose, the think that faith is belief in something DESPITE the evidence without realizing that faith is TRUST in what we have evidence for, but lack proof.
Hope is a weakness for some, we see it as our strength.
They see death as a final release, we see it as the end of on stage of development and the beginning of another.

They find comfort in nothingness for various reasons ( some because it justifies them doing whatever they want to HERE and NOW), we find comfort in the belief that there is more.

[Audie]

Below is a quote from Journal on Near death Studies from the Discussion section:

Second, the cardiac arrests induced in ICD testing may have been too brief in duration to permit near-death experiences to unfold. There certainly have been reports of near-death experiences in the absence of cardiac arrest (Owens, Cook, and Stevenson, 1990; Stevenson, Cook, Journal of Near-Death Studies ndst-25-02-03.3d 6/2/07 18:12:14 95 BRUCE GREYSON ET AL. 95 and McClean-Rice, 1989–1990), and duration of cardiac arrest has been reported to be unrelated to the occurrence of NDEs (van Lommel, van Wees, Meyers, and Elfferich, 2001).

However, it is conceivable that patients undergoing ICD testing are not in cardiac arrest long enough to induce NDEs reliably. In EEG studies of patients similar to ours undergoing ICD implantation and testing, the mean time from induction of ventricular fibrillation or last systolic blood pressure to onset of EEG change suggestive of cerebral ischemia was 10–11 seconds (Clute and Levy, 1990; deVries, Bakker, Visser, Diephuis, and van Huffelen, 1998), which exceeded the mean duration of cardiac
arrest among participants in this study. It is plausible that the ICDs’ efficiency terminated cardiac arrest in these patients before near death experiences had the time to develop.

Third, the use of the pre-anesthetic sedative midazolam may have made it difficult for participants who did have near-death experiences to remember them following the procedure. The use of general anesthetics in these patients would not in itself preclude subsequent reports of near-death experiences, as many patients describe such
experiences under general anesthesia (Kelly, Greyson, and Kelly, 2006). Some patients can recall events that occurred while they were ostensibly anesthetized (Cheek, 1964, 1966; Ghoneim and Block, 1997; Levinson, 1965), and the dissociative anesthetic ketamine may induce events similar to near-death experiences (Jansen, 1997).

However, the sedative midazolam that was used to premedicate patients in this study characteristically causes anterograde amnesia independent of its sedative or anesthetic effect (Veselis, Reinsel, and Feshchenko,1997, 2001). If midazolam does indeed inhibit recall of near-death experiences, in contrast to other sedating medications, that distinction may suggest a biochemical pathway associated with such experiences.

Medicine Virginia Edu article

As you can see from this non-bias study there is at least some honesty regarding the use drugs that produce anterograde amnesia as well as short duration of NDE in a clinical study do have effects on those that report not experiencing anything.

This is was what I was referring too. Next, from the discussion section more test should be done to confirm anterograde amnesia drugs produced and duration of NDE. However to prolong a death state is fatal for those participating in these clinical test so that duration in reality cannot be tested. If Long duration test do occur, such as with hypo/hyperthermic treatment of cardiac patient, drugs that cause anterograde amnesia are used because if not, the patient's body/nervous system could not take the shock of such long duration treatment to needed to test duration of NDE.

Hope this helps...

Next, Audie, you and fellow atheist are defending a state of nothingness. I have a right to point this out for I once was an atheist like yourself and defended Nothingness when you die with the same venom you use here.

I too used to cite that Human beings created religion to control society’s base nature failing to realize that no human being really wants or desires their own base nature stopped and not allowed to express itself freely. In truthfulness, societal norms exalt base nature of humanity not the other way around. The ancient pagan religions that were created by man exalted depravity as the norm. Some simple examples: ancient Greek culture the shrewd trickster sexual immorality was exalted. Rome, iron domination. Should I go back further to those who burned their babies alive in the fires of Molech? Or dancing in bisexual orgies? Bestiality? Or historical facts how sexual transmitted diseases started and effects on DNA? How about the partaking of substances to induce altered states and the effects on human DNA on future generations?

How about the modern equivalence of these espoused by the prevailing culture: adultery, divorce, single motherhood and or murder of babies under the disguise of choice? What about the slide into lawlessness extolled now as greatest virtues? How about alcohol and substance abuse and the effects on DNA to future generations? How about how dominance and control by groups over others works through ridicule and unjust name calling - or revenge? The wrongly comparing homosexual love as equal and superior to a husband and wife love for each oher? Men love differently than women love and therefore logic and reason points this out: homosexual love cannot be in the same class because men and women love differently. Again, Homosexual love produces death to a species and death and nothingness is thus exalted as normal. Do a clinical study on this, put 20 homosexual men on an isolated island and provide all water, shelter, and food needs met and Lesbian women on another island 100 miles apart and come back in 100 years - will any progeny be made? NO - just death proved. Is that superior form of love or the same as a husband and wife love for each other? One produces life and other death...

Atheism defends a culture of death based upon nothingness. Therefore, if your nothingness is superior and all there is, then it does not matter how altruistic one is as it is pointless. It is a far greater virtue then to live as debased and immoral as you desire - no real point to anything at all - all is meaningless. Mom telling one to live disciplined with no joy - just performance - is meaningless too. Heck - all life is meaningless. Wow - how superior and what good is that superior form of thought anyway?

Audie, you have that meaninglessness starring you in the face every day and atheism can only defend meaninglessness nothingness. Due to people straying into debasedness and designing philosophic and quasi religions to justify this debasedness is what is meant by missing the mark of God's best - which we define as what sin really is. God designed humanity for far better things. Humanity chose debasement as the the best form of good and true goodness as the new evil. Humanity is not improving or evolving into a better state, the murder of the unborn point out humanities hypocrisy.

Atheist like to put God on trial and claim he should never have been absolutely fair and just to allow freedom of thought/reason/conscience never realizing they are defending the tyranny of dictatorship of a strong leader like Chairman Mao, or Stalin, or Caesar to control and not even complain about that that. You cite that God a moral monster dictator because he is absolutely fair and just allowing freedom of thought/reason/conscience to humanity? Who gave you that right to make that claim and who wants you to turn away form such nonsense?

Who came upon this one insignificant speak of sand midst all the sand of the universe to identify with humanity just to point out how we betray each other, mock, put on trial, control, dominate, beat, abandon, reject, break each other hearts, murder relationships, neglect true needs, etc, in order to restore us back to his original design for humanity. Who would do this? What craziness would have someone come and point this out so we can voluntarily become reconcile back to our creator as changed beings who now have life and no longer nothingness?

Sitting in the back seat of a car, a mother telling her daughter to tuff it up, don't cry - smart girls don't cry - has an effect on the child - does it not - Audie? The child simply wants to be held by her mother but that embrace is thwarted to teach - smartness - don't cry - life is hard. That has an effect does it not?

What of divorce, abuse, neglect that we cause and blame god for doing? Into this rottenness, Jesus came to set us free.

Audie, you said you do not want to be a Christian - yet - you are still here. However here on this form we are not telling you, like the mother, to shut up, smart girls don't cry. Nor do we withhold a warm embrace of fellowship no matter what you say. Jesus extends his hands to you and desire to heal where your heart has been broken and seeks to mend it and for that reason - you keep choosing nothingness why what is the real reason for the chip on your shoulder?

You and I will face death, none of us knows when our own day will come, but it will. On behalf of those here on this forum - we know Jesus and He knows us. What we have, we extend to you, maybe one day you will realize whose face you are really slapping... Choice is yours - Nothingness or True Life...
-
-
-

As I do with the Taliban, I hope that you too will escape the clutches of thr vicious cult to which you are currently a victim.

[PaulSacramento]

As I do with the Taliban, I hope that you too will escape the clutches of thr vicious cult to which you are currently a victim.

I'm sorry, can you please explain this statement?

[Storyteller]

Those last two posts really moved me, for different reasons.

BW... for me, that was a really thought provoking post. Seriously, once you get past the gruffness of it, there is a real beauty there.

Paul...I find that heart breakingly sad. That depth of despair.

For me, there is always hope. There is God. God offers hope. There is a reason, a purpose for life.
The sheer miracle of life screams out Creator.

If there was no God, there would be no hope, no point.

Christ died to show us there is hope. All we have to do is admit it.

You need to understand that for some people the notion of "hope" is not the same as the way Christians view it, same goes for faith.
They see those things as negatives, not positives.
The redefine them to suit their purpose, the think that faith is belief in something DESPITE the evidence without realizing that faith is TRUST in what we have evidence for, but lack proof.
Hope is a weakness for some, we see it as our strength.
They see death as a final release, we see it as the end of on stage of development and the beginning of another.
But I have always had hope, even before I found Christ. I used to think the idea of being changed in some way, or to have to try and live followings the teachings of a book that spoke in riddles, I just couldn't really grasp it.

They find comfort in nothingness for various reasons ( some because it justifies them doing whatever they want to HERE and NOW), we find comfort in the belief that there is more.

Why would anyone want that?
Maybe thats what drove me to really start to think that maybe, if I truly believe in something so good, something that seems just too good to be true, it might just turn out to be true.

Guess what?
It is.

I pray for all those that have lost that hope. My heart breaks that they cannot see that hope, that love.

God has given me so many gifts, so many blessings and enough tests to make sure I don't get bored that I want that for every living soul.

Sorry, i'm rambling.

[Audie]

For some, nothingness is not a bad thing.
Nothing to answer for, no more responsibilities, no accountability, etc...
In short, some can view the belief that there is nothing after death as a source of comfort.

Not that you could name any, but there must be some.

[PaulSacramento]

For some, nothingness is not a bad thing.
Nothing to answer for, no more responsibilities, no accountability, etc...
In short, some can view the belief that there is nothing after death as a source of comfort.

Not that you could name any, but there must be some.

Oh I can name some personal ones, but since you wouldn't know any.
I recall that Christopher Hitchens was very much ok with there being nothing after death, even took comfort in it.

With infinite life comes an infinite list of relatives. Grandparents never die, nor do great-grandparents, great-aunts...and so on, back through the generations, all alive and offering advice. Sons never escape from the shadows of their fathers. Nor do daughters of their mothers. No one ever comes into his own...Such is the cost of immortality. No person is whole. No person is free.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

“Death has this much to be said for it: You don’t have to get out of bed for it. Wherever you happen to be They bring it to you—free. —Kingsley Amis”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

“If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

[Audie]

As I do with the Taliban, I hope that you too will escape the clutches of thr vicious cult to which you are currently a victim.

I'm sorry, can you please explain this statement?

Sure. I see individuals, members of the Taliban, as people who were once innocent and good children. Now, they are members of a savage cult. I dont really understand what happened to them, I dont suppose they do either. They are as much victims as those they murder in the name of Allah, for all that they are victims in different ways.

Its only decent and charitable to recognize that, and to hope that they one and all can escape from their cult and thus improve their souls.

The person who could say (make up) and believe the things that BW said about me
must likewise have once been a sweet innocent and good child. What happens to turn someone so? Buying into such a regressive cult is voluntary I suppose, more so at least than the same act is for a Taliban, given the circumstances.

Still, is sad, and horrible to see someone a victim to either cult, and I do sincerely hope for his recovery.


Fortunately, that subset does not represent "Christianity" any more that the gappies yecs Branch Davidians. Mormons or JWs do. There is intelligence and goodness and
wisdom in Christianity, which I am at pains to say both because it is true, and because
I dont want it said that the cults make me broad brush all of Christianity as being repellent or nutty.

[PaulSacramento]

As I do with the Taliban, I hope that you too will escape the clutches of thr vicious cult to which you are currently a victim.

I'm sorry, can you please explain this statement?

Sure. I see individuals, members of the Taliban, as people who were once innocent a good children. Now, they are members of a savage cult. I dont really understand what happened to them, I dont suppose they do either. They are as much victims as those they murder in the name of Allah, for all that they are victims in different ways.

Its only decent and charitable to recognize that, and to hope that they one and all can escape from their cult and thus improve their souls.

The person who could say (make up) and believe the things that BW said about me
must likewise have once been a sweet innocent and good child. What happens to turn someone so? Buying into such a regressive cult is voluntary I suppose, more so at least than the same act is for a Taliban, given the circumstances.

Still, is sad, and horrible to see someone a victim to either cult, and I do sincerely hope for his recovery.


Fortunately, that subset does not represent "Christianity" any more that the gappies yecs Branch Davidians. Mormons or JWs do. There is intelligence and goodness and
wisdom in Christianity, which I am at pains to say both because it is true, and because
I dont want it said that the cults make me broad brush all of Christianity as being repellent or nutty.

What exactly did BW make up about you?
DO you not believe that after death there is nothing?

[Audie]

For some, nothingness is not a bad thing.
Nothing to answer for, no more responsibilities, no accountability, etc...
In short, some can view the belief that there is nothing after death as a source of comfort.

Not that you could name any, but there must be some.

Oh I can name some personal ones, but since you wouldn't know any.
I recall that Christopher Hitchens was very much ok with there being nothing after death, even took comfort in it.

With infinite life comes an infinite list of relatives. Grandparents never die, nor do great-grandparents, great-aunts...and so on, back through the generations, all alive and offering advice. Sons never escape from the shadows of their fathers. Nor do daughters of their mothers. No one ever comes into his own...Such is the cost of immortality. No person is whole. No person is free.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

“Death has this much to be said for it: You don’t have to get out of bed for it. Wherever you happen to be They bring it to you—free. —Kingsley Amis”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

“If I convert it's because it's better that a believer dies than that an atheist does.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality

Ok, an antitheist who didnt like anyone or anything very much.

But none of the quotes there support your contention in bold, above. Do you have a reason to think he was an irresponsible person, answered to nothing and wished no accounting?

[Audie]

As I do with the Taliban, I hope that you too will escape the clutches of thr vicious cult to which you are currently a victim.

I'm sorry, can you please explain this statement?

Sure. I see individuals, members of the Taliban, as people who were once innocent a good children. Now, they are members of a savage cult. I dont really understand what happened to them, I dont suppose they do either. They are as much victims as those they murder in the name of Allah, for all that they are victims in different ways.

Its only decent and charitable to recognize that, and to hope that they one and all can escape from their cult and thus improve their souls.

The person who could say (make up) and believe the things that BW said about me
must likewise have once been a sweet innocent and good child. What happens to turn someone so? Buying into such a regressive cult is voluntary I suppose, more so at least than the same act is for a Taliban, given the circumstances.

Still, is sad, and horrible to see someone a victim to either cult, and I do sincerely hope for his recovery.


Fortunately, that subset does not represent "Christianity" any more that the gappies yecs Branch Davidians. Mormons or JWs do. There is intelligence and goodness and
wisdom in Christianity, which I am at pains to say both because it is true, and because
I dont want it said that the cults make me broad brush all of Christianity as being repellent or nutty.

What exactly did BW make up about you?
DO you not believe that after death there is nothing?

As I only skimmed over it, and do not care to read in detail so as to go back and put all of them in bold, i will ask you, perhaps more pertinently, if you actually think that my lack of belief in any of the countless gods and religions that people have cooked up makes for an automatic default into all of the things he found fit to say?

Are you a member of the same cult? if so, lets not pursue this further.

[PaulSacramento]

But none of the quotes there support your contention in bold, above. Do you have a reason to think he was an irresponsible person, answered to nothing and wished no accounting?

Sorry, my bad, I focused on the "comfort in nothing part".
I apologize.

Communists like Marx, Stalin and Mao aside of course.
There are athiest the likes of Sam Sheppard and Michael Onfray.

Onfray is an anarchist and hedonist.

That aside, I was referring to why some people want there to be noting after death, why some may even prefer it.

[PaulSacramento]

As I only skimmed over it, and do not care to read in detail so as to go back and put all of them in bold, i will ask you, perhaps more pertinently, if you actually think that my lack of belief in any of the countless gods and religions that people have cooked up makes for an automatic default into all of the things he found fit to say?

Are you a member of the same cult? if so, lets not pursue this further.

You didn't answer my question Audie.
It was simply this:
Do you not believe that after death there is nothing?