Studies that say NDEs are not real.

[1over137]

That said, if a person has made up their mind that Christianity is not the way, what exactly are they testing ??

That is a question.

[bippy123]

That said, if a person has made up their mind that Christianity is not the way, what exactly are they testing ??

That is a question.

And that is why I feel that most atheists have some kind of deeper emotional bias that caused them to leave Christianity and become atheists .
Once they let it out things become a lot clearer to them in the way they apply critical thinking and they become a little more open to God and the supernatural .

[abelcainsbrother]

I don't understand why Audie gets so upset when people point out what she thinks and believes,it just causes anger for her to acknowledge it,but yet she has no problem lashing out at others for believing Christian doctrine.It is like she takes it personal.like we are stereo-typing her when she thinks exactly like atheists do.She may seem more reasonable at times about it but point it out what she and other atheists think?and she gets angry. I don't know of anybody here who has intentionally accused Audie of things that were not true,she has been treated fairly and with respect even when she gets hot with others.Nobody has been mean to Audie here and all anybody here has tried to do is challenge and question why she thinks like she does.

I personally overlooked every time Audie got hot with me and overlooked it.I think everybody here cares about Audie and does not want her to keep believing the atheist lies out there and that should not bother her seeing that she is on a Christian forum with people that are going to try to reach her if possible before its too late.We are supposed to do it and would not be doing what we are supposed to do if we were'nt.Christians on atheist forums are treated far worse and are constantly mocked,insulted,preached to about how science is the only way to truth,naturalism is true ,how WLC is stupid,how cool their atheist hero's are,etc and if you disagree? You are shot-down,mocked,called names,ridiculed,ganged up on,etc.We don't treat people this way here,and as long as they are respectful? I think we want them here.

[B. W.]

One thing that got under my skin when I was an atheist was the reality of defending nothingness. If nothing is all there is, then my own morality or the noblest of morality of others had no factual basis or substance. I could not even say the pre-world war 2 Japanese rape of Nanking was morally wrong, or Hitler’s ideology. I could not even say the Cambodian Massacre by the Khmer Rouge was wrong simply because, if only nothing is all there really is, then there is no such thing as right or wrong. After all, the sun will implode one day anyway - so - there went morality based upon strict materialism.

At that time, I was blind and could not see, despite being a student of history, science, archaeology, that no pagan religious system would ever design or promote the 10 Commandants. I was too blind to see the other world religions all promoted a works to earn favor as a means to manipulate god or god's in a quid pro quo fashion. Ancient religions all gloried, justified, extolled, the most base and perverse and destructive aspects of human behavior.

That evidence was overwhelming. I was too blind to see, back then, that instead of human beings making morals, designing, and creating god/gods based on what causes pain verse what does not just to make social living possibly tolerable, the opposite occurred. From Moloch, Baal, to the fertility gods, to pantheism, Greek glorification of wiliness/slyness, to Roman pragmatism, to Hindu works, to the Eastern diabolical mind, Islam's cult of death (moon god) all point that no human being would even tolerate the 10 Commandments or the aspects of the New Testament moral principles. This evident today, people do not desire any of this and rebel against it, as Audie and other do here on this forum amply demonstrate.

People by nature would not create the God of the bible for mere political or social stability as atheist argue. The facts is, our world is sliding into depravity, disrespect for parents, and authority. The list from 2 Tim 3:1,2,3,4 is self-evident nowadays more than ever.

People are not all basically good and will do the right thing eventually. History disproves that outright. They instead make gods and idols and political systems to justify and glorify the debased human nature as normal seeking to call good - evil (Dysfunctional) and what is evil (Dysfunctional) as good. If then, if all there is that faces all humanity is the stark reality of nothingness after we die, then it matters not how we live because there is only the absolute of hopelessness for the human condition.

Atheism defends this nothingness in an absolute unyielding fashion while touting moral relativism as a hope that cannot possibly last.

God does exist. He created and gave evidence of himself in creation. He sent us a moral code and designed us as moral beings above all the animal kingdom. He placed inside us all the ability of faith. He did all this fairly and justly giving us free moral agency and it’s responsibly. Humanity tossed aside this responsibility, fell away from God, and made a mess of things. Humanity exchanged the truth for a lie. There is no reason God should save anyone of us. He should have wiped out humanity long ago and is justified to do so.

Just to think that if you put all the sand in the entire universe together and take out just one tiny grain of sand, midst this vast universal ocean of sand, this earth that houses us all, to think that God would come to this one speck and then identify himself with humanity in order to reconcile us back to himself so we can become restored back into a personal friendly fellowship with God is indeed profound.

To think He went to a cross and in doing so revealed the blackness of the human heart so that we can see what is inside (Jeremiah 17:9, 10) so the direction of our lives and minds change while also providing the means to die in our place so we can be resurrected into new life is beyond what my pea brain can comprehend. Why he would do this for the likes of us is beyond me all on this speck of sand midst the vastness of the universe.

I certainly would not do this but God did and did this for an ungrateful self-absorbed lot. He came and gave us life we deserve it not. Yet, we blame him for all ills and deny he exist in the process, we steal and betray, rob each other, live by quid pro quo, we glorify depravity, yet Jesus shouted forgiveness upon a cross exposing it all openly.

If Audie's and the Morny's of the world would just look. Jesus shouted to us, “new life - all free - return to me who loves you that much.” But what do many do? Mock, scoff, continue to put God on trial, create arguments to justify nothingness, beat, call Christians names, shout hurrah when ISIS slaughter and rapes more Christians. Shout hurrah while calling us names and demand we conform to their will or face ridicule, death, mockery, our rights stripped from us, silenced, submission or else, Who then are the real bigots and hypocrites?

Audie called us all names, trying to stir the pot. Why?

Makes no sense. All we offer is a simple choice, an absolute voluntary choice to return the God and be made new. For that we are maligned, slaughtered, demand that we cease being judgmental of depravity, that we cease from defending life, cease form speaking the truth, cease to warn that all humanity is headed to an eternal judgment, cease from offering a life line, cease from ever existing in the first place. Yes, Atheism defends insanity as normal. We offer an absolutely voluntary choice. There is no coercion as in Islam. Just a simple choice Jesus spoke of in John 3:15.16,17,18,19,20,21. For that we are told by the Audie’s of the world to shut up, roll over and die.

Sorry Audie, we love you too much to shut up. We shout, "you are heading to an abyss!" - where the goal of no hope is actualize. We would love to see you rescued by Jesus and meet him and have him heal your broken heart and set you free. That you actually speak to him and have your issues answered by him. It is a simple choice. No one is forcing you. This is not the middle or renaissance ages where Christianity was hijacked for political aspirations. Get over it. This is Jesus calling out to you through others tossing you the sliver cord lifeline (Eccl 12:6,7) to real life restored / reconciled back to God who could have simply ignored us all.
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[cled]

Atheism is like great ship heading for the rocks of destruction and your using all your might to turn it around , thanks for taking the time to share, we will all find out , but then it will be too late and be sealed for all eternity as man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.But how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation and Jesus said that all that hate me love death . I am grateful that he reveal Himself to me the way he did and I know Him.

[1over137]

Audie may as well be very busy with her college studies. It is now exam season.

[NobodySpecial]

That said, if a person has made up their mind that Christianity is not the way, what exactly are they testing ??

That is a question.

And that is why I feel that most atheists have some kind of deeper emotional bias that caused them to leave Christianity and become atheists .
Once they let it out things become a lot clearer to them in the way they apply critical thinking and they become a little more open to God and the supernatural .

I agree with this. Most atheists that I've encountered and had a subsequent discussion with eventually revealed that they are not really atheistic but more anti-theist. I've seen this as a result of unanswered prayers (specifically the death of a loved one), hypocrisy among Christians, perceived contradictions in the Bible and/or a fundamental misunderstanding of God's nature. Because they can't reconcile their experience with Biblical truth they reject it as false.

Case in point: in the OP the article used to discuss the non-existence of NDE's was written by Michael Shermer, who claimed to have once believed but after the death of a loved one abandoned his beliefs and now subscribes to the idea that there is no justice in the universe. I would submit that he only looks for ways to disprove God, not because he really believes God doesn't exist, but because he's upset over his circumstances and can't understand why God would let something like that happen to him.

On topic of whether NDE's exist or not: I think it goes to whether or not we have a "soul" and I would submit that we do on the basis of the fact that although scientist can tell you when you're brain is active and whether or not you're thinking - there's no way to discern what a person is thinking (unless they tell you). This would seem to point to the existence of something immaterial that is independent of the brain/body. Proofs concerning the immortality of the soul can be found here: http://www.strangenotions.com/seven-pro ... uman-soul/

Overall the idea that this life is all we have and there is nothing after would lead people to act just as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:32 when dealing with people who didn't believe in the resurrection "If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die!"

[abelcainsbrother]

Atheists don't seem to like this but atheists actually prove God's word true without even knowing it.Every time I hear atheists I see proof the bible is true,they are proof the bible is true but Romans 1 lays it out for all to see exactly what atheists do and think.

Romans 1:20-32 " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Because that,when they knew God,they glorified him not as God,neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations,and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves wise,they became fools.And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,and to birds,and four- footed beasts,and creeping things.

Wherfore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie,and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,who is blessed for ever,Amen.

[Kenny]

One thing that got under my skin when I was an atheist was the reality of defending nothingness. If nothing is all there is, then my own morality or the noblest of morality of others had no factual basis or substance. I could not even say the pre-world war 2 Japanese rape of Nanking was morally wrong, or Hitler’s ideology. I could not even say the Cambodian Massacre by the Khmer Rouge was wrong simply because, if only nothing is all there really is, then there is no such thing as right or wrong.

Nothingness? What does it mean and why did you as an atheist feel a need to defend it?

After all, the sun will implode one day anyway - so - there went morality based upon strict materialism.-

How is it possible to base morality on materialism? Isn't that like trying to base morality on algebra? This isn't making sense; where am I going wrong? Please explain.

Ken

[B. W.]

One thing that got under my skin when I was an atheist was the reality of defending nothingness. If nothing is all there is, then my own morality or the noblest of morality of others had no factual basis or substance. I could not even say the pre-world war 2 Japanese rape of Nanking was morally wrong, or Hitler’s ideology. I could not even say the Cambodian Massacre by the Khmer Rouge was wrong simply because, if only nothing is all there really is, then there is no such thing as right or wrong.

Nothingness? What does it mean and why did you as an atheist feel a need to defend it?

After all, the sun will implode one day anyway - so - there went morality based upon strict materialism.-

How is it possible to base morality on materialism? Isn't that like trying to base morality on algebra? This isn't making sense; where am I going wrong? Please explain.

Ken

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Next point... Materialism involves relativistic morality as an absolute. I recall we and others disused this with you before. Do you recall these discussions?

If you do, then what I mentioned may make a bit more sense, if not, let me know...


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[Kenny]

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Again; what is "nothingness"?

Next point... Materialism involves relativistic morality as an absolute. I recall we and others disused this with you before. Do you recall these discussions?

If you do, then what I mentioned may make a bit more sense, if not, let me know...

I do not remember.

Ken

[NobodySpecial]

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Again; what is "nothingness"?

Ken

Nothingness - the idea that before creation was nothing, after death there will be nothing, and all life in between is essentially meaningless when looked on the scale of eternity because from nothing we came and to nothing we go

[Kenny]

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Again; what is "nothingness"?

Ken

Nothingness - the idea that before creation was nothing, after death there will be nothing, and all life in between is essentially meaningless when looked on the scale of eternity because from nothing we came and to nothing we go

Okay thanks for clearing that up. If nothingness requires a belief in creation, I doubt most atheists would agree with the concept of nothingness; that sounds more like a theists assumption of what an atheist might think, because from my experience; theists will often presuppose everything was created. Also, how does one make sense of “before creation, nothing existed? Creation requires something to exist to do the creating! This sounds totally illogical to me. How could anybody possibly make sense of this?

Ken

[NobodySpecial]

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Again; what is "nothingness"?

Ken

Nothingness - the idea that before creation was nothing, after death there will be nothing, and all life in between is essentially meaningless when looked on the scale of eternity because from nothing we came and to nothing we go

Okay thanks for clearing that up. If nothingness requires a belief in creation, I doubt most atheists would agree with the concept of nothingness; that sounds more like a theists assumption of what an atheist might think, because from my experience; theists will often presuppose everything was created. Also, how does one make sense of “before creation, nothing existed? Creation requires something to exist to do the creating! This sounds totally illogical to me. How could anybody possibly make sense of this?

Ken

I agree that the statement "before creation, nothing existed" is completely illogical which is why I don't adhere to that belief. But since it seems like you have a greater understanding of the atheistic position, please explain the alternative to the "presupposition" that everything was created?

[Kenny]

As a former atheist...

Nothingness was all I was in reality defending. Could not escape that fact.

Again; what is "nothingness"?

Ken

Nothingness - the idea that before creation was nothing, after death there will be nothing, and all life in between is essentially meaningless when looked on the scale of eternity because from nothing we came and to nothing we go

Okay thanks for clearing that up. If nothingness requires a belief in creation, I doubt most atheists would agree with the concept of nothingness; that sounds more like a theists assumption of what an atheist might think, because from my experience; theists will often presuppose everything was created. Also, how does one make sense of “before creation, nothing existed? Creation requires something to exist to do the creating! This sounds totally illogical to me. How could anybody possibly make sense of this?

Ken

I agree that the statement "before creation, nothing existed" is completely illogical which is why I don't adhere to that belief. But since it seems like you have a greater understanding of the atheistic position, please explain the alternative to the "presupposition" that everything was created?

something/somethings have always existed.

Ken