Got Questions wrote:
God is regarded as omnipresent, whereas in both Judaism and Christianity, this view is further subdivided into the transcendence and immanence of God.
In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of the material universe, beyond all physical laws. This is contrasted with immanence, where God is said to befully present in the physical world and thus accessible to creatures in various ways.
RickD wrote:
I think the disagreement lies in the doctrine. You believe it is biblical. possible .He doesn't.
RickD wrote:
I told you. God is Spirit. As Spirit, He is omnipresent. A Spirit isn't physically present anywhere. God can be physically present if He chooses, but just because He's not physically present everywhere, that doesn't mean He's not omnipresent.
No one has said He needs to be physically present everywhere. But that certainly does not preclude His ability to do so and notably, physically present in this debate only in the Eucharist. No where else (everywhere?) is required to partake of the Holy Communion, and that most assuredly does proclaim His omnipresence every minute of every day where mass is being said...
How do you explain the dual physical presence of God when Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove came from the sky? You do believe the Holy spirit is a person, yes? You do believe Jesus is a person, yes? If He can do two He can do an infinite number of physical presences, yes ? if He so desires... I believe in the transcendence and immanence of God, I believe in the possibility ... do you or don't you?
RickD wrote:
You understand Christ's presence in the wafers as his omnipresence
ES wrote:
No, absolutely not. I see His attribute of omnipresence as His ability to be anywhere at anytime simultaneously, including the Host.
RickD wrote:
That's what I meant. But my point was that you see God being omnipresent in the wafers.
No, again, you put the cart before the horse. I see Christ physically in the Host
because of His omnipresent attribute, not
as His omnipresence. His omnipresence is not explained by residing in the Host, it is exemplified, as the Host is only one of an infinite of locational possibilities proving His omnipresence. Does it make sense you'd say that's what you meant if you think omnipresence is a spiritual attribute only, which is all you have said to this point in the post ?
RickD wrote:
And my point on that, was that just because Gendron doesn't see God being physically present in each wafer, that doesn't mean God couldn't be physically present. He's not calling God's omnipresence into question.
He is when he uses the word polytheism. He denotes a god is involved (theism) and the topic is God within multiple wafers. He uses Polytheism to describe our faith in God because he doesn't believe in the immanence of God.
How do you debate a point that says he doesn't believe in the physical presence in each wafer ... but... it could be he's physically present in each wafer and still say he's not calling God's omnipresence in to question ? That's having your cake and eating it too. He is most certainly saying the physical presence of God in multiple wafers is not real, and that denies the omnipresence attribute of God, which also denies the omnipotence and omniscience of God for obvious reasons. That's the problem with denial of any one attribute,it brings the whole house of cards crashing down.
RickD wrote:
Nobody is saying that God can't be in a wafer. Gendron just disagrees with transubstantiation, which says He is the wafer.
Gendron says He can't be in the wafer simultaneously without committing an act of polytheism. How else could he say:
Since each Eucharist contains the whole Christ, and since upwards of hundreds of wafers are consecrated during each mass, hundreds of Jesus Christs become physically present. Although the Vatican would never acknowledge it, this is a form of polytheism, the worship of many gods.
This isn't just disagreeing with transubstantiation, its creating a withering branch of faith he calls polytheism in place of worshiping the One True god
Whether he agrees that "nobody is saying God can't be in the wafer" or not, the fact that he attests that to do so is an act of polytheism remains. You can't worship polytheisticly without the discernment that there are many gods involved, not just The God, Jesus Christ. He's not stepping on the toes of Catholics... he's dancing with the devil.
RickD wrote:
To sum it up, I don't think Gendron is saying that Christ cannot be physically present in hundreds of wafers. I just think he's saying that Christ is not physically present
Why would you say this ? Why do you think he thinks this ? Can you justify this biblically ? Is there a verse that states Jesus is not physically in the Host? If not, where does he get his doctrinal information as to the invalid teaching of Corpus Christi ? Why is Jesus not present in the Eucharist ?
RickD wrote:
God is Spirit. He's not a physical being. Of course I agree that God is capable of manifesting (for lack of a better term) Himself physically, but He doesn't eternally exist as a physical being, or physical substance.
What possible difference does this make if He can/does or does not exist physically eternally ? Even so, then how do you explain the physical Jesus. Whose physical body was broken for all ? Is Jesus not a physical being who is also God or is the Trinity in trouble here? You do believe Christ will live eternally, you do believe our resurrected bodies will return and live on eternally so why won't God, at least in one person live on eternally, physically. And how does that fact, in any way deter from the possibility of a physical omnipresence in multiple locations ?
RickD wrote:
But, I think it simply comes down to Catholic doctrine. Not God's omnipresence.
Catholic doctrine is not the post here. This man's views of the impossibility through the immanence of God that multiple physical presences of Jesus are attainable is. He's decided that, not only his way of thinking is correct, to the point of my way or the highway, it is ok to impune the faith of over 1 billion practicing Catholics, insult the transcendence of(supposedly his) God and with fore thought and malice refute a faith that has existed for over 2000 years... all on his say so. Turn the theistic faith of billions in to polytheistic faith without support or shred of evidence to support his claim.... just because he said so...
by B. W.
Heresy is the design to intentionally undermine Christian Faith. That is the difference. The way modern people think is that all views have equal validity is error. That point of view is not based upon love at all but spiritual suicide.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine
![y/:]](./images/smilies/yahoo/20.gif "Raised eyebrow"){kind=small}
come on...
and goodnight.
God Bless, or Mary bless(whatever you Catholics say to each other)...
