Studies that say NDEs are not real.

[Nicki]

The dictionary defines it as "lack of belief in God or Gods. It doesn't say "lack of belief in the existence of what someone might call God". Again; people worship the Sun. You believe in the existence of the Sun. Does this make you anti theist because you don't want to worship it?

Ken

For simplification I'm going to use 'I AM' when referring to the God of the Bible.

I just want to clarify: You believe that 'I AM' exists but you don't recognize Him as God - despite the fact that your definition of what it means to be God is the same way 'I AM' defines Himself in the Bible. Is that what you're saying?

No. I am saying in theory a person who believes differently than I do could believe I AM exists, not believe he is God and remain atheist.

Ken

To me the difference between this sort of belief and your example of a sun god is that the sun is clearly visible to anyone who can see so I doubt there's anyone who doesn't believe it exists. On the other hand, believing in the existence of a being like I AM seems synonymous with believing in God.

[Kenny]

The dictionary defines it as "lack of belief in God or Gods. It doesn't say "lack of belief in the existence of what someone might call God". Again; people worship the Sun. You believe in the existence of the Sun. Does this make you anti theist because you don't want to worship it?

Ken

For simplification I'm going to use 'I AM' when referring to the God of the Bible.

I just want to clarify: You believe that 'I AM' exists but you don't recognize Him as God - despite the fact that your definition of what it means to be God is the same way 'I AM' defines Himself in the Bible. Is that what you're saying?

No. I am saying in theory a person who believes differently than I do could believe I AM exists, not believe he is God and remain atheist.

Ken

To me the difference between this sort of belief and your example of a sun god is that the sun is clearly visible to anyone who can see so I doubt there's anyone who doesn't believe it exists. On the other hand, believing in the existence of a being like I AM seems synonymous with believing in God.

As I said before, I doubt there are many Atheists who believe in the existence of “I AM” (myself included) that’s why I was speaking in theory.
My point is…. to say God doesn’t exist is foolish unless an explanation of God is given IMO. If you ask me do I believe in God, I will answer no because of all beings that exist, I don’t consider any of them God. If you ask me do I believe God exists, I will ask you to define God. Upon describing your concept of God I will then be able to tell you if I believe this God exists or not; because even though I live in the USA where 99.99% of the time when a person asks you about God he is referring to the God of Abraham, I understand there is a chance this person may be talking about another God; perhaps one I’ve never heard of, and to dismiss the possibility of such a being without even knowing what the person is talking about is foolish in my opinion. And momma didn’t raise no fool! (LOL)

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

everything needs an explanation. Nothing just is without a reason why it is. Everything that is has some adequate or sufficient reason why it is.

While everything may have an explanation, we will not always know what that explanation is. There is just so much about this Universe that we just don’t know, and we must be willing to admit what we don’t know, while we continue to seek answers.

Ken

Kenny this is not a trick or anything,this is based on logic and reason,you say we will not always know what the explanation is but that only applies to people like you who deny logic and reality.We know through logic and reality that all things have a cause,to deny this is to deny logic and reason and all to rule out God as a cause.

You are choosing to step outside of logic and reason and go against logic,reason,reality and facts in order to somehow believe not all things have a cause.Yet you cannot name one thing in this universe that does not have a cause and was not caused by something else,you are using imagination that is outside reality.This is because no matter what we talk about,it has a cause and was caused by something else, tornadoes,hurricanes,people,universe,cars,tables,TV's,toys,cans,doors,umbrellas,etc I mean we can go on and on and see in our world all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else yet you think somehow that you can step outside of logic,reason and reality all because you do notvwant to acknowledge all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else.

You put your faith in something that defies logic,reason and reality in order to assume by imagination this stuff you believe by blind faith.
You see you think it is easier to believe not all things have a cause instead of believing God is eternal and can create and cause universes easy,when it isn't because you are defying logic and reason,out in LA LA land to believe not all things have a cause.

Keep in mind it is easy to believe God is eternal, all- powerful and can create and cause universes easy because God can do these things if he chooses to but what you believe requires far more faith that defies the facts about everything in our world.

[Kenny]

everything needs an explanation. Nothing just is without a reason why it is. Everything that is has some adequate or sufficient reason why it is.

While everything may have an explanation, we will not always know what that explanation is. There is just so much about this Universe that we just don’t know, and we must be willing to admit what we don’t know, while we continue to seek answers.

Ken

Kenny this is not a trick or anything,this is based on logic and reason,you say we will not always know what the explanation is but that only applies to people like you who deny logic and reality.We know through logic and reality that all things have a cause,to deny this is to deny logic and reason and all to rule out God as a cause.

You are choosing to step outside of logic and reason and go against logic,reason,reality and facts in order to somehow believe not all things have a cause.Yet you cannot name one thing in this universe that does not have a cause and was not caused by something else,you are using imagination that is outside reality.This is because no matter what we talk about,it has a cause and was caused by something else, tornadoes,hurricanes,people,universe,cars,tables,TV's,toys,cans,doors,umbrellas,etc I mean we can go on and on and see in our world all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else yet you think somehow that you can step outside of logic,reason and reality all because you do notvwant to acknowledge all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else.

You put your faith in something that defies logic,reason and reality in order to assume by imagination this stuff you believe by blind faith.
You see you think it is easier to believe not all things have a cause instead of believing God is eternal and can create and cause universes easy,when it isn't because you are defying logic and reason,out in LA LA land to believe not all things have a cause.

Keep in mind it is easy to believe God is eternal, all- powerful and can create and cause universes easy because God can do these things if he chooses to but what you believe requires far more faith that defies the facts about everything in our world.

This is the same argument you've made time and time again. God as a reasonable and logical answer is only logical and reasonable to those who share your beliefs. I do not share your beliefs so unless you can provide some evidence to support your claim, you are waisting your time expecting me to take your word for it.

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

everything needs an explanation. Nothing just is without a reason why it is. Everything that is has some adequate or sufficient reason why it is.

While everything may have an explanation, we will not always know what that explanation is. There is just so much about this Universe that we just don’t know, and we must be willing to admit what we don’t know, while we continue to seek answers.

Ken

Kenny this is not a trick or anything,this is based on logic and reason,you say we will not always know what the explanation is but that only applies to people like you who deny logic and reality.We know through logic and reality that all things have a cause,to deny this is to deny logic and reason and all to rule out God as a cause.

You are choosing to step outside of logic and reason and go against logic,reason,reality and facts in order to somehow believe not all things have a cause.Yet you cannot name one thing in this universe that does not have a cause and was not caused by something else,you are using imagination that is outside reality.This is because no matter what we talk about,it has a cause and was caused by something else, tornadoes,hurricanes,people,universe,cars,tables,TV's,toys,cans,doors,umbrellas,etc I mean we can go on and on and see in our world all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else yet you think somehow that you can step outside of logic,reason and reality all because you do notvwant to acknowledge all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else.

You put your faith in something that defies logic,reason and reality in order to assume by imagination this stuff you believe by blind faith.
You see you think it is easier to believe not all things have a cause instead of believing God is eternal and can create and cause universes easy,when it isn't because you are defying logic and reason,out in LA LA land to believe not all things have a cause.

Keep in mind it is easy to believe God is eternal, all- powerful and can create and cause universes easy because God can do these things if he chooses to but what you believe requires far more faith that defies the facts about everything in our world.

This is the same argument you've made time and time again. God as a reasonable and logical answer is only logical and reasonable to those who share your beliefs. I do not share your beliefs so unless you can provide some evidence to support your claim, you are waisting your time expecting me to take your word for it.

Ken

All I'm trying to get you to do is think logically and use reason,not imagination,yet you insist on using imagination about the reality around you and all to reject God as a cause.

[Kenny]

everything needs an explanation. Nothing just is without a reason why it is. Everything that is has some adequate or sufficient reason why it is.

While everything may have an explanation, we will not always know what that explanation is. There is just so much about this Universe that we just don’t know, and we must be willing to admit what we don’t know, while we continue to seek answers.

Ken

Kenny this is not a trick or anything,this is based on logic and reason,you say we will not always know what the explanation is but that only applies to people like you who deny logic and reality.We know through logic and reality that all things have a cause,to deny this is to deny logic and reason and all to rule out God as a cause.

You are choosing to step outside of logic and reason and go against logic,reason,reality and facts in order to somehow believe not all things have a cause.Yet you cannot name one thing in this universe that does not have a cause and was not caused by something else,you are using imagination that is outside reality.This is because no matter what we talk about,it has a cause and was caused by something else, tornadoes,hurricanes,people,universe,cars,tables,TV's,toys,cans,doors,umbrellas,etc I mean we can go on and on and see in our world all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else yet you think somehow that you can step outside of logic,reason and reality all because you do notvwant to acknowledge all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else.

You put your faith in something that defies logic,reason and reality in order to assume by imagination this stuff you believe by blind faith.
You see you think it is easier to believe not all things have a cause instead of believing God is eternal and can create and cause universes easy,when it isn't because you are defying logic and reason,out in LA LA land to believe not all things have a cause.

Keep in mind it is easy to believe God is eternal, all- powerful and can create and cause universes easy because God can do these things if he chooses to but what you believe requires far more faith that defies the facts about everything in our world.

This is the same argument you've made time and time again. God as a reasonable and logical answer is only logical and reasonable to those who share your beliefs. I do not share your beliefs so unless you can provide some evidence to support your claim, you are waisting your time expecting me to take your word for it.

Ken

All I'm trying to get you to do is think logically and use reason,not imagination,yet you insist on using imagination about the reality around you and all to reject God as a cause.

You do realize what is logical for one is not going to be for someone else don't you? To me your faith in God IS imagination; logic and reason is to admit nobody knows!

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Kenny,I'm not trying to insult you but my belief in God makes and keeps in reality,logic and reason.It is just not logical to believe somehow some things do not have a cause based on everything around us.I have logic,reason and reality on my side because all things have a cause and all things caused are caused by something else.How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe instead not all things have a cause and are not caused by something else?

Do you hold out hope that science will somehow prove this all things have a cause thing wrong? Because if you are? They never will because they are ignoring philosophy that defies logic,reason and reality and if they somehow promote this as truth? It will not be true and for hundreds of years this has not been proven wrong despite all of the naturalism rhetoric and instead the science that came out only lined up and confirmed more of the bible true and it is only going to continue.

I already see signs of it with new discoveries that have been discovered that has the potential to confirm more of the bible true like for instance the bible tells us the water on this earth came from inside it,yet science has thought comets brought the water to the earth.
Yet based on zircon crystals in the earth and oceans of water inside the earth this is changing the scientific concensous confirming more of the bible true.

Job 38:8 " Or who shut up the sea with doors,when it brake forth,as if it had issued out of the womb?"

http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq

[Kenny]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

instead not all things have a cause and are not caused by something else?

Do you hold out hope that science will somehow prove this all things have a cause thing wrong?

You're doing it again! If you gonna speak out of one side of your mouth and say ALL things are caused by something else, then out of the other side of your mouth you say God is not caused by something else, you are contradicting yourself. Take a hint from Bippy123 his version of aquinas argument makes sense.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

There is empirical evidence that points to God.
However, God is Himself not accessible or testable by us empirically via scientific methods.

I'm sure you meant to latter?

[RickD]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

There is empirical evidence that points to God.
However, God is Himself not accessible or testable by us empirically via scientific methods.

I'm sure you meant to latter?

What Kenny means, is that he's put on his blinders, so that he cannot see the evidence that points to God. He then confounds the whole subject by saying there are different "definitions" of God.

[Kenny]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

There is empirical evidence that points to God.
However, God is Himself not accessible or testable by us empirically via scientific methods.

I'm sure you meant to latter?

I agree with the latter.

Ken

[Kenny]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

There is empirical evidence that points to God.
However, God is Himself not accessible or testable by us empirically via scientific methods.

I'm sure you meant to latter?

What Kenny means, is that he's put on his blinders, so that he cannot see the evidence that points to God. He then confounds the whole subject by saying there are different "definitions" of God.

Hey! If that's what you wanna believe about me, knock yourself out my friend!

Ken

[Kurieuo]

How can it be hard for you to believe God can cause and create universes easy to believe

It is easy for you to believe because you have faith. I don't have faith, so it is difficult for me to believe because there isn't any empirical evidence that points to your God.

There is empirical evidence that points to God.
However, God is Himself not accessible or testable by us empirically via scientific methods.

I'm sure you meant to latter?

I agree with the latter.

Ken

So then, to go through a list of issues I'd perceive you having against God's "hiding" if you will.
Purely for just interests sake.

You: Why doesn't God dwell amongst us in plain sight like the Sun?
Me: Why should God dwell amongst us?
You: Well, if God wants us to all believe, then that would do it!

I'd agree with you. It is in fact stupid of God, if God wants us to merely believe He exists, that God doesn't make Himself as clear as the Sun.

BUT, let's look at some points between a world wherein God is clearly known like the Sun versus a world like ours where a knowledge of God can be buried and hidden.

1) The two worlds setup a quite different relationship between us and God, in particular, our personal freedom to accept/deny God is greatly affected.
2) In a world where God dwells with us, would we also live forever in such a world? (what would be the point of making it temporary?)
3) On (2), what of pain and suffering if this world be made forever? Tools that form true character.
4) Extending (3), should God also give us complete happiness, spoil us, give us every pleasure?
5) Could we seriously reject God in such a world wherein He exists as the Sun. Should we be able to hide from God?

Now if God made himself known in the world, there would also be a reverse of the question: "How can I accept God if God doesn't make Himself positively known" --
-- this question would become "How can I reject God if He forces Himself onto my life in the world." (further note: "true love" would never be coercive but should always be based on a free decision)

In summary, we can clearly see many things would be different in our relationship with God, indeed even in the world, if God decided to live along side us as clear as the Sun.

The question then is, which one would we expect a divine entity (God) to choose?
Obviously it depends upon God's intentions and purpose in the world that God creates, right?

It seems a world wherein God allows us to hide, and bury knowledge of Him, is the best world to uncover our true heart.
Those who love, will seek and God (according to Christ and the Apostles) promises to reveal Himself to us.

Yet, a world wherein God just wants everyone to bow the knee and merely believe He exists, would in fact be one where God is as clear as the Sun and cannot be hidden from.
"BUT, hey everyone believes" and so will be saved. God wants us to just believe He exists, right? No. Even Satan believes (James 2:19).

There is here an equivocation that happens and is made by Christian and non-Christian alike between "belief" and to "believe in".
For example, soldiers in a unit my believe their commander exists. BUT, they may not "believe in" their commander.
The difference is subtle, but hopefully clear.

So then to "believe in" Christ that he is God and existed, is different from truly believing in Christ. Right?
And yet, many commit the error in making an equivocation of the two different meanings in "belief".
The religious language of Christians is always unclearly conveyed and parroted as something like: "Believe in Christ and be ye saved!"
When no, to believe in Christ is to hand one's self over to Christ, their mind, body and soul... to truly believe in Him.

There is a wide world of difference between these two understandings of "belief".
The first, isn't what Christianity is about -- that is, a mere belief in God or Christ.
(and there are those who will disagree with me, but that's fine -- they can be wrong! )

Rather the sense of "belief" is one of your heart, where you want to follow God and serve him.
Not due to some divine stick, but rather because you do have a love for God and to do what is just and right.
This is the type of belief that Paul spoke of in Romans 10:9-15.

It would include believing in God EVEN when things don't go your way, or my way.
To trust in God, that He has the best intentions for good and us in the greater scheme of things.

You know, God could take away my family tomorrow, and I'd be very sad.
I may even question God's goodness. But, then, I submit that I don't see the beginning from the end.
That, at the end of the day, God is being God to take some and leave others for whatever reason.
But, still, I have faith in God as my Lord that He knows what He is doing even if I don't.

All I know, is that the evidence is at least clear to me, that God truly does exist.
So if I were ever to lose my belief in God, it wouldn't be a loss of belief in "God's existence" but rather a loss in belief of God as a commander I'll follow.

I truly wonder Ken, when you lost your belief in God and Christ as such,
whether it was more a case of a loss in trust in God rather than no longer believing God exists.

[Kenny]

So then, to go through a list of issues I'd perceive you having against God's "hiding" if you will.
Purely for just interests sake.

You: Why doesn't God dwell amongst us in plain sight like the Sun?
Me: Why should God dwell amongst us?
You: Well, if God wants us to all believe, then that would do it!

I'd agree with you. It is in fact stupid of God, if God wants us to merely believe He exists, that God doesn't make Himself as clear as the Sun.

BUT, let's look at some points between a world wherein God is clearly known like the Sun versus a world like ours where a knowledge of God can be buried and hidden.

1) The two worlds setup a quite different relationship between us and God, in particular, our personal freedom to accept/deny God is greatly affected.

When you say the freedom to accept/deny, do you mean the existence of? or the freedom to ignore? Because I don’t have the freedom to deny the existence of my parents, the Sun, or even you yet I don’t feel any loss of freedom.

2) In a world where God dwells with us, would we also live forever in such a world? (what would be the point of making it temporary?)

No; we don’t live forever now! why would it need to be eternal if God’s existence were empirically observable? The point of making it temporary would be the same point of it currently being temporarily.

3) On (2), what of pain and suffering if this world be made forever? Tools that form true character.

Let’s assume the world is not forever.

4) Extending (3), should God also give us complete happiness, spoil us, give us every pleasure?

He doesn’t do it now; why if his existence were empirically observed?

5) Could we seriously reject God in such a world wherein He exists as the Sun.

Of course we could! Just as I have the option to reject my parents.

Should we be able to hide from God?

Can you hide from him now?

Now if God made himself known in the world, there would also be a reverse of the question: "How can I accept God if God doesn't make Himself positively known" --
-- this question would become "How can I reject God if He forces Himself onto my life in the world."

Now how did we get from “empirical evidence of his existence” to “FORCED into my life”? I must have missed something.

In summary, we can clearly see many things would be different in our relationship with God, indeed even in the world, if God decided to live along side us as clear as the Sun.


The question then is, which one would we expect a divine entity (God) to choose?
Obviously it depends upon God's intentions and purpose in the world that God creates, right?

It seems a world wherein God allows us to hide, and bury knowledge of Him, is the best world to uncover our true heart.

I’m not getting this “hide and bury knowledge” thing you're getting at. how is it possible to hide from a God that knows everything? And how does one bury knowledge?

Those who love, will seek and God (according to Christ and the Apostles) promises to reveal Himself to us.

Why not reveal himself to all with no strings attached?
It’s getting late, I will respond to the rest later

Ken

[B. W.]

[...Why not reveal himself to all with no strings attached?

God did, but their are folks like yourself who are around who deny the evidence and defend their stance on nothingness at all cost...

Since there are folks like yourself, then it is folks like yourself who created the strings.

What does atheism really have to offer Ken?

What do you offer?
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