Studies that say NDEs are not real.

[Kurieuo]

I'm not sure how to respond back.
Some points are clearly not coming through, and, I'm also feeling that you are quite defensive.
I'm not sure why as there's no argument being made -- not by me.

In any case, I can think of many reasons why God created this world as He did.
You want God to show himself physically. I believe God did, on his own terms.
God isn't out to prove He exists. Nor am I out to do that to those who don't want to believe.

I tend to agree with CS Lewis who stated in The Great Divorce,

• "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."

And re-reading your words Ken, this appears to fit you perfectly.
You cannot see God in a positive light, why is that? What happened in your life that was so bad.
God's sovereignty, His being rightful Lord over all creation appears to be seen by you as something tyrannical.
I'm guessing it is because you ultimately disagree with how God did things, if He truly exists. Therefore God is unfair, unjust, unloving, vindictive, etc.

Do you ever ask yourself why are you here? Seriously.

In any case, another time Ken.

It was not my intention to come across as defensive. My intent was just to answer the questions you asked. If I chose my words wrong and they came across in a hostile manner; that was not my intention and sorry if it appeared that way

Peace
Ken

It's all good.
Happens when in debative mode.
I just wasn't intending to debate.

[B. W.]

[...Why not reveal himself to all with no strings attached?

God did, but their are folks like yourself who are around who deny the evidence and defend their stance on nothingness at all cost...

If evidence of God were as obvious as the Sun in the sky; who needs deniable evidence when you have facts? As far as nothingness, if nothingness is the idea that nothing exists, I doubt there is a person on Earth who defends that position, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

What does atheism really have to offer Ken?

Atheism is a default position. It doesn't offer anything. What's the point of your question?

Ken

You stated this: Atheism is a default position. It doesn't offer anything. What's the point of your question?

If it does not offer anything, then, isn't that nothingness?

No. Nothingness is the absurd idea that nothing exists. To not be offered something is to not be bribed.

Ken

Here is what the rules, laws of grammar state that nothingness means from several online dictionaries from Websters onward...concerning context of this thread and discussion.

noth·ing·ness: noun

-the absence or cessation of life or existence.
-the state of being no longer seen, heard, or felt
-lack of being

So are you violating the rules of grammar in regards to atheist's faith that after one dies they cease to exist?

Again, true atheist do indeed defend nothingness...

Kenny, can you answer this question again - in your opinion, what happens after you die?

I suggest that you avoid the snide answer of I do not know because so far as what you have written points out that you believe cessation is what happens. So please clarify again.
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[Kenny]

Here is what the rules, laws of grammar state that nothingness means from several online dictionaries from Websters onward...concerning context of this thread and discussion.

noth·ing·ness: noun

-the absence or cessation of life or existence.
-the state of being no longer seen, heard, or felt
-lack of being

So are you violating the rules of grammar in regards to atheist's faith that after one dies they cease to exist?

Again, true atheist do indeed defend nothingness...

Kenny, can you answer this question again - in your opinion, what happens after you die?

I suggest that you avoid the snide answer of I do not know because so far as what you have written points out that you believe cessation is what happens. So please clarify again.
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As I said before, if you believe you consist of a body and a spirit, and upon death only your body dies, your spirit remains alive; and you are eventually fitted with a new body, that isn't dying, that's going from one life to another. Such a belief is that you never die, a position I do not hold. I've asked for definitions of nothingness several times and my replies reflected the answers I received. The definition you presented does sound like what happens when you die; you no longer exist. So going by that definition of nothingness, I defend "nothingness" only after you die; before death there is something.

Ken

[NobodySpecial]

Here is what the rules, laws of grammar state that nothingness means from several online dictionaries from Websters onward...concerning context of this thread and discussion.

noth·ing·ness: noun

-the absence or cessation of life or existence.
-the state of being no longer seen, heard, or felt
-lack of being

So are you violating the rules of grammar in regards to atheist's faith that after one dies they cease to exist?

Again, true atheist do indeed defend nothingness...

Kenny, can you answer this question again - in your opinion, what happens after you die?

I suggest that you avoid the snide answer of I do not know because so far as what you have written points out that you believe cessation is what happens. So please clarify again.
-

As I said before, if you believe you consist of a body and a spirit, and upon death only your body dies, your spirit remains alive; and you are eventually fitted with a new body, that isn't dying, that's going from one life to another. Such a belief is that you never die, a position I do not hold. I've asked for definitions of nothingness several times and my replies reflected the answers I received. The definition you presented does sound like what happens when you die; you no longer exist. So going by that definition of nothingness, I defend "nothingness" only after you die; before death there is something.

Ken

If you believe that after you die nothing happens then what is the purpose of life? From that point of view life has no significance because there are no lasting effects. Sure you could fill your life with pleasurable moments but if you don't remember those after you die, or rather after you die it's as if you never even had those moments because you cease to exist then what is the point?

[B. W.]

BW
Human beings are more than capable of making their own laws as this link shows: History of Law Link This simply shows that none can really live by those laws for any length of time. Why is that?

Ken
Most laws most people can live by.

So people break laws...

Now if one loves God, with all their being and others as themselves as Jesus revealed, there would peace in the world. That is impossible right now because people live and create their own personal laws that supersede societal laws. Just your admittance that 'Most laws most people can live by' shows that people cannot live by the laws they make. This is evidence for the what we call the human sin nature. God provided the means to expunge this sin nature from our lives through what Jesus Christ accomplished on the Cross and Resurrection, both of which are foreign to you at this time due to your incessant speech that drowns out your hearing Him speak.

YHWH is real, and he does have real fellowship with those that are learning to love Him. He is called the Heavenly Father for a reason. He is always speaking all around in nature and throughout creation. It is we who silence our ears and blind our eyes to him. He reveals himself to all in many diverse ways proving that life exist and he is the source of that life. God did not mess life on earth up as you boast, humanity did. God's silence is due to the human condition to keep shouting so loud that folks cannot hear him speak or see his ways. Just as you are doing, Ken.

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

However, what you fail to note is that we Christians speak about Him, not for him, because he is more than able to speak for himself in your own heart. It is you that need to listen. Yes, in our speaking about him, he can use these to help a person hear him that will not violate on iota of Loving God with all one's being first and secondly loving other as yourself. Jim Jones and David Koresh did not and instead followed their own egos as does ISIS. Don't make the equivalence fallacy here on this forum.

Mature Christians do not follow their egos and use that as a pretext to speak for God. We simply point out that he exist, he is real, that we can be reconciled, that our sins separated us from him so we cannot hear him, that one can hear him because he came and took care of our falling away upon a cross that exposes and defines what true sin is as well as paid our death penalty in our place as the events 24 hours prior and during the cross exposed. In doing this, God heals the human condition by simple faith in his own act of grace that demonstrated a love more profound than what any can pen can fully describe. Jesus rose from the dead so we can rise out of our ashes in this life. During our earthly sojourn we come into understanding why things are the way they are and reasons for them.

I suggest you actually use your honesty and read C S Lewis to discover what I mean and be ready to throw your ax away.

Have a nice day
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[Kenny]

Here is what the rules, laws of grammar state that nothingness means from several online dictionaries from Websters onward...concerning context of this thread and discussion.

noth·ing·ness: noun

-the absence or cessation of life or existence.
-the state of being no longer seen, heard, or felt
-lack of being

So are you violating the rules of grammar in regards to atheist's faith that after one dies they cease to exist?

Again, true atheist do indeed defend nothingness...

Kenny, can you answer this question again - in your opinion, what happens after you die?

I suggest that you avoid the snide answer of I do not know because so far as what you have written points out that you believe cessation is what happens. So please clarify again.
-

As I said before, if you believe you consist of a body and a spirit, and upon death only your body dies, your spirit remains alive; and you are eventually fitted with a new body, that isn't dying, that's going from one life to another. Such a belief is that you never die, a position I do not hold. I've asked for definitions of nothingness several times and my replies reflected the answers I received. The definition you presented does sound like what happens when you die; you no longer exist. So going by that definition of nothingness, I defend "nothingness" only after you die; before death there is something.

Ken

If you believe that after you die nothing happens then what is the purpose of life? From that point of view life has no significance because there are no lasting effects. Sure you could fill your life with pleasurable moments but if you don't remember those after you die, or rather after you die it's as if you never even had those moments because you cease to exist then what is the point?

The fact that I will not be around a billion years from now doesn't mean what I do today doesn't matter; it matters TODAY. The more plentiful something is, the less valuable it becomes. If Gold were as common as lead, it would be worthless. The fact that life is as limited as it is makes it that much more precious while you have it. Living forever makes each precious moment of life practally worthless. I value my life more because it is limited.

Ken

[NobodySpecial]

Here is what the rules, laws of grammar state that nothingness means from several online dictionaries from Websters onward...concerning context of this thread and discussion.

noth·ing·ness: noun

-the absence or cessation of life or existence.
-the state of being no longer seen, heard, or felt
-lack of being

So are you violating the rules of grammar in regards to atheist's faith that after one dies they cease to exist?

Again, true atheist do indeed defend nothingness...

Kenny, can you answer this question again - in your opinion, what happens after you die?

I suggest that you avoid the snide answer of I do not know because so far as what you have written points out that you believe cessation is what happens. So please clarify again.
-

As I said before, if you believe you consist of a body and a spirit, and upon death only your body dies, your spirit remains alive; and you are eventually fitted with a new body, that isn't dying, that's going from one life to another. Such a belief is that you never die, a position I do not hold. I've asked for definitions of nothingness several times and my replies reflected the answers I received. The definition you presented does sound like what happens when you die; you no longer exist. So going by that definition of nothingness, I defend "nothingness" only after you die; before death there is something.

Ken

If you believe that after you die nothing happens then what is the purpose of life? From that point of view life has no significance because there are no lasting effects. Sure you could fill your life with pleasurable moments but if you don't remember those after you die, or rather after you die it's as if you never even had those moments because you cease to exist then what is the point?

The fact that I will not be around a billion years from now doesn't mean what I do today doesn't matter; it matters TODAY. The more plentiful something is, the less valuable it becomes. If Gold were as common as lead, it would be worthless. The fact that life is as limited as it is makes it that much more precious while you have it. Living forever makes each precious moment of life practally worthless. I value my life more because it is limited.

Ken

I disagree with that assessment. First, Gold is intrinsically value because of what it can be used for and so even if it was as common as dirt it would still have that intrisic value.

Secondly, significance is a time concept. An event is significant because of the impact is have on future generations. Nothing can be significant when looked at as an isolated occurrence.

If nothing that happens today matters in the future then looking back it would not have mattered at all because it doesn't have a lasting impact. If ultimately life ends and there is no afterlife then a billion years from now when the earth has melted into the sun nothing that happened will have ultimately mattered because it had no impact on the future state of nothingness.

[Kenny]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

[Kenny]

I disagree with that assessment. First, Gold is intrinsically value because of what it can be used for and so even if it was as common as dirt it would still have that intrinsic value

.
Lead has value as well! But it isn’t as valuable as Gold. I think you understand the point I was making.

Secondly, significance is a time concept.

No it is not. Significance means worthy of attention; It has nothing to do with time unless you use it in the context of time

If nothing that happens today matters in the future then looking back it would not have mattered at all because it doesn't have a lasting impact. If ultimately life ends and there is no afterlife then a billion years from now when the earth has melted into the sun nothing that happened will have ultimately mattered because it had no impact on the future state of nothingness.

What I do today may not matter a million years from now, but it does matter to me and my neighbors today. To me my actions today have value. Do they have value to you?

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

God never spoke to you? You never felt the Holy Spirit convicting you,speaking to your heart,drawing you to Christ?

[Kenny]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

God never spoke to you? You never felt the Holy Spirit convicting you,speaking to your heart,drawing you to Christ?

No.

K

[bippy123]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

God never spoke to you? You never felt the Holy Spirit convicting you,speaking to your heart,drawing you to Christ?

No.

K

Kenny, not everyone comes to belief in Christ in this way .
Gary habermas was a skeptic just like you, and his journey to Christ was filled with 10 years if doubt which he finally overcame . Just be open for God to show himself to you in any way possible , and it can be in a very subtle way .
Habermas describes the conviction of the Holy Spirit within him as a confidence in the evidence .

God brings each person to him in a different way my friend . Just keep looking and be open to him when he does do this within your life , and when he does show himself to you , it will most likely be in a way you never thought possible

[abelcainsbrother]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

God never spoke to you? You never felt the Holy Spirit convicting you,speaking to your heart,drawing you to Christ?

No.

K

Did you ever go to a church and hear preaching about Jesus?Have you ever been at a church where the pastor gives an altar call to receive Jesus and be saved? These might sound like dumb questions but there is a reason I'm asking.

[Kenny]

You cite that the main crux of why you cannot believe in God is because other people claim to speak for him and as evidenced by all the whackiness folks do in his name from Jim Jones to David Koresh to ISIS, etc and etc. in that, you have my sympathy and I would agree with you.

I didn’t say anything like that. I didn’t say it was the main crux of my reason, I never mentioned David Koresh, Jim Jones, or any cult leader, I never even suggested anyone’s behavior or actions as a reason for my lack of belief, and that isn’t my position. What I said was God never spoke to me; all I got were people claiming to speak for God.
God/Jesus didn’t write the Bible, people wrote the bible and we are expected to take their word for it that they were inspired by God and everything they wrote was the truth.

Ken

God never spoke to you? You never felt the Holy Spirit convicting you,speaking to your heart,drawing you to Christ?

No.

K

Did you ever go to a church and hear preaching about Jesus?Have you ever been at a church where the pastor gives an altar call to receive Jesus and be saved? These might sound like dumb questions but there is a reason I'm asking.

yes

K

[B. W.]

If you believe that after you die nothing happens then what is the purpose of life? From that point of view life has no significance because there are no lasting effects. Sure you could fill your life with pleasurable moments but if you don't remember those after you die, or rather after you die it's as if you never even had those moments because you cease to exist then what is the point?

The fact that I will not be around a billion years from now doesn't mean what I do today doesn't matter; it matters TODAY. The more plentiful something is, the less valuable it becomes. If Gold were as common as lead, it would be worthless. The fact that life is as limited as it is makes it that much more precious while you have it. Living forever makes each precious moment of life practally worthless. I value my life more because it is limited.

Ken

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:16-17

Do you really value your life?
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