Revisiting OSAS

[RickD]

There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

LittleHamster,

Here's a good examination of those verses in James. It goes over a few interpretations of the text. Scroll down to the verses in question. See what you think:
http://soniclight.org/constable/notes/pdf/james.pdf

[Kurieuo]

There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

LittleHamster,

Here's a good examination of those verses in James. It goes over a few interpretations of the text. Scroll down to the verses in question. See what you think:
http://soniclight.org/constable/notes/pdf/james.pdf

Quite a bit to chew on in that.

[RickD]

There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

LittleHamster,

Here's a good examination of those verses in James. It goes over a few interpretations of the text. Scroll down to the verses in question. See what you think:
http://soniclight.org/constable/notes/pdf/james.pdf

Quite a bit to chew on in that.

Pertaining specifically to James 2:14-26, there's really not too much*. Just scroll down to those verses.




*And K,
Even if you read the entire study guide to the book of James, it's not any longer than the posts you write.

[LittleHamster]

There are some that will argue that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26) and so faith alone is not enough to save you. Can someone please provide a contextual counter-argument to this.

LittleHamster,

Here's a good examination of those verses in James. It goes over a few interpretations of the text. Scroll down to the verses in question. See what you think:
http://soniclight.org/constable/notes/pdf/james.pdf

Thanks for that. I'm going to have to write an entire website just on the quote "Faith without works is dead". Perhaps, later write a book and down the track....a Movie and 2 sequels !
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Faith without Works is Dead

Return of the Faith without Works is Dead

Faith without Works is Dead Strikes Back !

[Philip]

Hamster:

Faith without Works is Dead

Return of the Faith without Works is Dead

Faith without Works is Dead Strikes Back !

OK, IF one has faith, THEN/subsequently - and FLOWING FROM that faith - we'll see works. But which comes FIRST? FAITH, of course! And you won't see SPIRIT-led works in an unbeliever. Those that misunderstand this often focus on the social gospel of do-gooderism. But if the proper focus is placed upon the importance of having faith, then those that have it WILL, inevitably, do good works. But, if we understand that one who truly has faith WILL manifest works, then this shouldn't ever be a debate or concern. Works, though a secondary byproduct of faith, will always spring from a believer. Although, at the very beginnings of faith, those works might be rather hard for us to see, or somewhat miniscule. But GOD knows!

[RickD]

Our faith ought to have works. And faith without works is dead. It's a dead faith, but it's still faith. Faith without works is not "no-faith". Meaning, the faith is still a saving faith, but it's not producing works, or it's dead.

[B. W.]

Our faith ought to have works. And faith without works is dead. It's a dead faith, but it's still faith. Faith without works is not "no-faith". Meaning, the faith is still a saving faith, but it's not producing works, or it's dead.

Suggest you all read this article as it expresses what the Hebrew concept of faith is about, just how the Apostle Paul uses the word...

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Medita ... faith.html
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[LittleHamster]

So:

Having faith leads to salvation.
Having faith subsequently produces works.
The works may not be immediately apparent.
Producing works does not necessarily mean you have faith.
A faith producing no works is still a faith but a 'dead' faith.
A person who is about to be saved has faith but may or may not have done works.
A person who is saved will produce works at some time.
Saint Dismas, at the point of death, did no works but was still saved *



* one could argue that calling out "I believe in Jesus", while hanging on the cross, was a type of works. This is interesting in itself as it may have formed the basis of salvation for many people who convert to Christianity while on their death beds.

[Philip]

Suggest you all read this article as it expresses what the Hebrew concept of faith is about, just how the Apostle Paul uses the word...

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Medita ... 0faith.html

One sentence in that link really jumped out at me: "We were freely justified when we FIRST came to the Lord in our brokenness, and we are freely sanctified by continuing to trust that God will sustain us throughout our lives."

As I mentioned before, this belief that, once one comes to salvation/ETERNAL life, that such a person could subsequently LOSE that salvation (which is initiated, nourished, sustained, and eternally guaranteed, ALL, by the Lord), in IMHO, is widely and successfully utilized by the devil to build anxiety, fear, uncertainty, and mistrust of God into believers. Why? Because it keys salvation's permanence upon a believer, as opposed to (correctly) upon God. And the more we struggle with sin, the more aware we are of our mortal fallibility, the more successfully the devil deploys and exploits his use of the insecurities believers have, due to this false, extremely harmful belief. After some period after salvation, ALL Believers can look back to when they were saved, and despite so much growth and work remaining, despite their current struggles against sin, they can see how far they have come, of just precisely how messed up they were before being saved. And yet, at that moment of salvation, every messed up new Christian is FULLY justified in Christ. But the devil wants us to think that God thinks and reacts to us as do men. I sometimes think just how much God loves us, of just how much He wanted to save us, when I think of the tribulations of Jesus, even to a horrific death. He is NOT about to waste the unfathomable cost and what was accomplished due to the frailties of our own personal resolve and inability to avoid sin. He did NOT save His children only to risk them potentially being killed while they're "playing in the street." He's made sure of THAT!

[LittleHamster]

Suggest you all read this article as it expresses what the Hebrew concept of faith is about, just how the Apostle Paul uses the word...

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Medita ... 0faith.html

One sentence in that link really jumped out at me: "We were freely justified when we FIRST came to the Lord in our brokenness, and we are freely sanctified by continuing to trust that God will sustain us throughout our lives."

As I mentioned before, this belief that, once one comes to salvation/ETERNAL life, that such a person could subsequently LOSE that salvation (which is initiated, nourished, sustained, and eternally guaranteed, ALL, by the Lord), in IMHO, is widely and successfully utilized by the devil to build anxiety, fear, uncertainty, and mistrust of God into believers. Why? Because it keys salvation's permanence upon a believer, as opposed to (correctly) upon God. And the more we struggle with sin, the more aware we are of our mortal fallibility, the more successfully the devil deploys and exploits his use of the insecurities believers have, due to this false, extremely harmful belief. After some period after salvation, ALL Believers can look back to when they were saved, and despite so much growth and work remaining, despite their current struggles against sin, they can see how far they have come, of just precisely how messed up they were before being saved. And yet, at that moment of salvation, every messed up new Christian is FULLY justified in Christ. But the devil wants us to think that God thinks and reacts to us as do men. I sometimes think just how much God loves us, of just how much He wanted to save us, when I think of the tribulations of Jesus, even to a horrific death. He is NOT about to waste the unfathomable cost and what was accomplished due to the frailties of our own personal resolve and inability to avoid sin. He did NOT save His children only to risk them potentially be killed while they're "playing in the street." He's made sure of THAT!

Good post ! Those insecurities you mention cause a lot of believers to do all sorts of weird stuff, e.g. adopt false religions, follow bad doctrine, incessantly go door-knocking, evangelise, all the while believing that their 'works' are leading to salvation. When it should be the other way around "Salvation should be leading towards works" IMHO.

[abelcainsbrother]

Christians have got to get rid of the religion and law and stop making salvation performance based.You do not understand the grace of God to already saved people.A lot of you think that it was easy to be saved and it was but you are messed up by religion and think that now a person is saved now it gets harder on the Christian annd if they don't pray,read the bible,do all of these things God will not answer uur prayer,and you are condemned and must clean your self up before God will bless you again,you would say God is punishing you for not doing all Therese things you now must do as a Christian.

If you think like this you were totally wrong and were ignorant of the grace of God to anybody who has received Jesus and have been saved.You makes mockery out of what Jesus did because for tho see who have been saved they are justified freely NOWW and have access to everything we inherit as a Christian by faith,and No man will be justified by the law but by grace that is a free gift by the blood of Jesus for everyone who has been saved by Jesus,regardless if you think they are living a good enough life.

Romans 5:8-21.

[Starhunter]

Salvation is 100% performance based, because we are judged according to works done.

The question is, will it be the works of Christ in us or our works?

So there remains a rest for us, where we no longer work for our salvation, but rest in Christ.

That gives us the motive and energy to speak and do loving unselfish things, without knowing it, because we are just happy to spend that New Life, that's what it is there for - spending.

[abelcainsbrother]

Salvation is 100% performance based, because we are judged according to works done.

The question is, will it be the works of Christ in us or our works?

So there remains a rest for us, where we no longer work for our salvation, but rest in Christ.

That gives us the motive and energy to speak and do loving unselfish things, without knowing it, because we are just happy to spend that New Life, that's what it is there for - spending.

Then tell me why God sent Jes us to save us then? If what you say is true God did not have to send Jesus,this makes you wrong a and you have been taught false doctrine and need to repent.The bible says over and over that no man will be justified by the law before God but by grace. I could post every verse in Romans,Galations,Hebrews,etc but I feeel like you are hung up on false doctrine. Read the Romans verses I posted above. Just like Rick told you before about the sabbath day,if you are going to truly live by the law and honor the sabbath,then you cannot say you are honoring it by going to church but you must go by all of the laws that apply to the sabbath,that you do not do,going to church is not honoring the sabbath.

This backs up my earlier point about how living under the law makes you sin more,the law condemns you and this is why now we are freely justified now by what Jesus did for us and not by what we do.I hope that you will let go of the false doctrine you have been taught and will learn about grace instead and teach it instead.

[RickD]

Starhunter wrote:
Salvation is 100% performance based, because we are judged according to works done.

The question is, will it be the works of Christ in us or our works?

I'd really like to see what scripture you used to back this up!

Because what you said above, completely contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[abelcainsbrother]

Lazy Christians will go to heaven because of what Jesus did,but they will not have treasure in heaven and will not be able to go certain places in heaven,there are consequences for living in sin,but nobody can lose their salvation because salvation is a blood covenant,but try to imagine explaining to Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ,with no crowns,you will answer to Jesus for laziness but cannot lose your salvation.

Revelation 22:14-15