Revisiting OSAS

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by Kurieuo »

abelcainsbrother wrote:Lazy Christians will go to heaven because of what Jesus did,but they will not have treasure in heaven and will not be able yo go certain places in heaven,there are consequences for living in sin,but nobody can lose their salvation because salvation is a blood covenant,but try to imagine explaining to Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ,with no crowns,you will answer to Jesus for laziness but cannot lose your salvation.

Revelation 22:14
Where can I read in Scripture your parts in bold? I.e.,
1) not being able to go certain "places" in heaven.
2) treasure in heaven in particular what this is.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by melanie »

Starhunter wrote:As the 7th Day Adventist thread was drifting off topic, I moved the OSAS discussion here.

Rick


--------------
I was watching a video by Dennis Priebe,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lA-r7XVFGs

Which I would not generally recommend because it is addressed to SDA's who know the Bible and the issues at stake in the SDA church, and if you watched it without a knowledge of those things you would get lost.

But it is interesting that the only doctrine that SDA's have been given as a church, which no other church or individual gave them, is the understanding of the final atonement, made by Christ to end the great contest between good and evil, between God and Satan.

It brings a full understanding of the issue that Satan has claimed against the government and character of God since the beginning of the rebellion, and it shows how God answers the Devil.
Not by words or a claim, but by a demonstration to angels and world, in humanity.

The Devil also has a show prepared for the world. You can read the details of that battle in our history since the Christian era, in the book "The Great Controversy" by E. White, available on line.

Some people like to say that SDA's are just following a whole lot of their own traditions, but no, all their teachings were already established by all the reformers and reformation churches. Somehow the understanding of the final atonement that God has in Christ for the world, is a culmination and collation of all truth, as well as a restoration of the image of God in humanity, the image so far as heart is concerned - a people of faith.

This subject is so great that I doubt that even SDA's understand it. I cannot grasp it at all, but I have read about it in the Bible to get the bones of it.
There are aspects of it which people in all denominations already know, and the readers here as well, including atheists, but also have not been able to get the whole of it. We sense that there is something missing, even in our Christian walk, we know that there is something powerless and slovenly about our personal walk with God. What is the missing piece the world needs if not the final atonement?

For example, some say that the ecumenical understanding of the Gospel, that Christ's sacrifice removes the sins of the world past, present and future is wrong, because it says that "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive..." making it seem like a present action of God, and not one in the past.

Yet John the Baptist declared "behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin(s) of the world." that would have to be a statement for past, present and future would it not?

While I believe salvation is conditional upon acceptance of Christ, I do not believe that the removal of sins, as in guilt before God, is conditional, seeing that God already loved the world so much, that He gave His only Son. A plan which was made for humanity in the garden of Eden.

Paul says "while we were sinners Christ died for us" and "being reconciled by His death." So the death of Christ reconciled the world long before we came to be. And the world of old was reconciled long before Christ came, because the promise of God - the Word of salvation could not fail, so it was as good as done.

The love of God for the world, has reconciled all of humanity to God, past, present and future, and that such a term of redemption remains in place until the judgement, when those who have not accepted this salvation are faced with their own life time of rejection of the love of God, and condemned.

The red carpet to heaven is already rolled out for humanity, right from the beginning of sin, and salvation is conditional of remaining on it to the destination.

So when we confess our sins, we are confirming and accepting the provision of salvation, which is forgiveness already.

Paul says that there remains a Rest for us to enter into. The Rest is already there - it is Jesus Christ our friend and Savior. It has to be as simple as that.
That is not teaching once saved always saved, because we can leave that provision if we choose.
ST
We are all honestly and sincerely trying to reach out and understand. Some will criticise the SDA and clearly from the link you posted there is open criticism from the speaker of the Protestant and catholic teachings. Like everything I wanted to give it a fair go, but I only watched half way, I will finish watching it when time permits. Be careful, and diligent. I did not disagree with everything stated but when so much criticism was given to the 'pagan' beliefs of 'others' it quickly countered to the statements found in 'The Great controversy'. I would have been a lot more impressed if scripture was used instead. It sounded to me like, dont believe this dogma but instead believe our dogma. There are many articulate, charismatic people who walk the walk, they are found in every denomination. But ironically to this teaching do they talk the talk.
What I mean by ironically is do you honestly think it can practised as its preached?
I don't think so.
I think it's dishonest to suggest it could. Not dishonest to suggest earnest trying, heartfelt commitment, longing to live for and by Christ, but the idea that we must do so to be sanctified, and more importantly 'saved' is entirely missing a very fundamental point. We all sin. People can theorise if it's because of our fallen nature as in your link but the fact remains, theorise all you like, we are sinners. You cannot live up to the premise pointed out by the bloke in the video, as I can't and I would suggest neither can he.
Perfection was attained by the one who hung on a cross to save us.
To pretend like we can't strive to be the very best we can would be denying the saving grace and awesome work that the HS presents in our lives. We are overcomers, we can strive, we can triumph, not in perfection but in grace and love.
You fed me when I was hungry. You cared for me when I was sick. You visited me when I was in goal. You gave a sh*t when no one else did. You cared. I mattered.
That is the law.
The law that Jesus taught,
Love God and love your neighbour, love your brother,and your sister.
We all fail but if somewhere in our failures we can honour God by loving others we are living by the greatest commandment of all.
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Kurieuo wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Lazy Christians will go to heaven because of what Jesus did,but they will not have treasure in heaven and will not be able yo go certain places in heaven,there are consequences for living in sin,but nobody can lose their salvation because salvation is a blood covenant,but try to imagine explaining to Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ,with no crowns,you will answer to Jesus for laziness but cannot lose your salvation.

Revelation 22:14
Where can I read in Scripture your parts in bold? I.e.,
1) not being able to go certain "places" in heaven.
2) treasure in heaven in particular what this is.
Not everyone will agree with the part about certain people not being able to go to certain places in heaven and I may should not have brought it into it as I have not heard anybody preach or teach it in years and it will require a little bible study on your part and not just surface reading with Revelation 21 and 22 however if some don't agree I could understand.

The part about treasures in heaven comes from Jesus in Matthew 6:19-20
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by LittleHamster »

I just cherry-picked a few quotes to ponder over


*NO WORKS REQUIRED

"NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." (Titus 3:5)

". . .by the righteousness of one, THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

*BACKSLIDERS ARE SAVED TOO

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 (Corinthians 3:11-15)

*SUPER-DUPER DOUBLE SECURITY - EVEN IF YOU LATER DON'T BELEIVE

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 (Timothy 2:13)

*STILL STUCK ON WORKS TO GET SAVED ? - GOD IS NOT IMPRESSED

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;. . ." (Isaiah 64:6)

*DON'T BE AN FOOL

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." (Proverbs 28:26)
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by neo-x »

After reading ACB's post I suddenly think heaven is a pirate's treasure cove.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by Starhunter »

melanie wrote:
Starhunter wrote: --------------
I was watching a video by Dennis Priebe,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lA-r7XVFGs

Which I would not generally recommend because it is addressed to SDA's who know the Bible and the issues at stake in the SDA church, and if you watched it without a knowledge of those things you would get lost.
ST
We are all honestly and sincerely trying to reach out and understand. Some will criticise the SDA and clearly from the link you posted there is open criticism from the speaker of the Protestant and catholic teachings. Like everything I wanted to give it a fair go, but I only watched half way, I will finish watching it when time permits. Be careful, and diligent. I did not disagree with everything stated but when so much criticism was given to the 'pagan' beliefs of 'others' it quickly countered to the statements found in 'The Great controversy'. I would have been a lot more impressed if scripture was used instead. It sounded to me like, dont believe this dogma but instead believe our dogma. There are many articulate, charismatic people who walk the walk, they are found in every denomination. But ironically to this teaching do they talk the talk.
What I mean by ironically is do you honestly think it can practised as its preached?
I don't think so.
I think it's dishonest to suggest it could. Not dishonest to suggest earnest trying, heartfelt commitment, longing to live for and by Christ, but the idea that we must do so to be sanctified, and more importantly 'saved' is entirely missing a very fundamental point. We all sin. People can theorise if it's because of our fallen nature as in your link but the fact remains, theorise all you like, we are sinners. You cannot live up to the premise pointed out by the bloke in the video, as I can't and I would suggest neither can he.
Perfection was attained by the one who hung on a cross to save us.
To pretend like we can't strive to be the very best we can would be denying the saving grace and awesome work that the HS presents in our lives. We are overcomers, we can strive, we can triumph, not in perfection but in grace and love.
You fed me when I was hungry. You cared for me when I was sick. You visited me when I was in goal. You gave a sh*t when no one else did. You cared. I mattered.
That is the law.
The law that Jesus taught,
Love God and love your neighbour, love your brother,and your sister.
We all fail but if somewhere in our failures we can honour God by loving others we are living by the greatest commandment of all.
Absolutely true. I was reluctant to post that video because it is for SDA's.
But if perfection is called for, it can only be done rightly and rightfully by God, which He has said before - "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Quote Jesus.

As God is happy to be loving in His realm, we are to be happy to love in our realm. That's perfection.
If we think perfection is wearing a frock and smiling at candles, that's fine, but perfection is a matter of the heart, so it can only be God's jurisdiction or our own.

The immediate reaction of convicted sinners is to run from the word perfect, because we have poisoned it by our perverse idea of what it means to be good. That's why we see perfection as an impossible thing to have, let alone keep.

What Phil wrote a couple of posts back is right on about justification and sanctification. If Christ began a good work in us - justification, shall He not finish that work also? - sanctification. "The Author and finisher of our faith" "Saving to the uttermost." and so on. God does the pardoning and God does the new life that sanctifies us. And as Phil intimated, sanctification is really about remaining justified freely.

The promises of a complete Christian life from beginning to the end are about the works of God in us, and not our works. We are all prone to worry or earn our way to heaven, both are centered in fear and distrust. We are all fearful and fallen.
We trust God to forgive us, but not to keep us from falling. It's time to take the next step, to trust that He will bring about a new heart and mind, in which is written the law of God, not as dead letters, but as living love.

That's the ultimate goal of the new covenant, as in Hebrews 4 and 10.

We are not saved by sanctification, because the thief on the cross had no time for that, but we are consequently changed by Christ - because of the justification we live by daily. Both are the same work of God.

What we currently have, is people believing in justification, and as soon as Christian virtues are mentioned, we do not trust that God wants to fulfill those graces in us as well.
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by Starhunter »

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Starhunter wrote:Salvation is 100% performance based, because we are judged according to works done.

The question is, will it be the works of Christ in us or our works?

So there remains a rest for us, where we no longer work for our salvation, but rest in Christ.

That gives us the motive and energy to speak and do loving unselfish things, without knowing it, because we are just happy to spend that New Life, that's what it is there for - spending.

Then tell me why God sent Jes us to save us then? If what you say is true God did not have to send Jesus,this makes you wrong a and you have been taught false doctrine and need to repent.The bible says over and over that no man will be justified by the law before God but by grace. I could post every verse in Romans,Galations,Hebrews,etc but I feeel like you are hung up on false doctrine. Read the Romans verses I posted above. Just like Rick told you before about the sabbath day,if you are going to truly live by the law and honor the sabbath,then you cannot say you are honoring it by going to church but you must go by all of the laws that apply to the sabbath,that you do not do,going to church is not honoring the sabbath.

This backs up my earlier point about how living under the law makes you sin more,the law condemns you and this is why now we are freely justified now by what Jesus did for us and not by what we do.I hope that you will let go of the false doctrine you have been taught and will learn about grace instead and teach it instead.

That's right Abel, Paul said the same thing - that when the law came he went overboard in sin, it made him worse.
But he goes on to say that the victory came when he realized that Christ would enable him to live the new life, not of works but of faith in His work in us.

We only have to get rid of the law if there is no way for us to keep it, but with the right change of heart, the commandments are easy. Easy not to kill, easy to rest on the Sabbath, easy not to steal, why? because we love people and we love God. We had nothing to offer God, and He gives us a new life for free.

Don't Christians love the law of God? Don't they love all the commandments of God?
What commandments do the saints keep in the last days of earth? Revelation 12, and 14?
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by Starhunter »

LittleHamster wrote:I just cherry-picked a few quotes to ponder over


*NO WORKS REQUIRED

"NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." (Titus 3:5)

". . .by the righteousness of one, THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

*BACKSLIDERS ARE SAVED TOO

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 (Corinthians 3:11-15)

*SUPER-DUPER DOUBLE SECURITY - EVEN IF YOU LATER DON'T BELEIVE

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 (Timothy 2:13)

*STILL STUCK ON WORKS TO GET SAVED ? - GOD IS NOT IMPRESSED

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;. . ." (Isaiah 64:6)

*DON'T BE AN FOOL

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." (Proverbs 28:26)
You certainly got me thinking...

But do we trust the works of God in us? Or do we say they cannot be done due to the fact that we have failed?
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by LittleHamster »

Starhunter wrote:
LittleHamster wrote:I just cherry-picked a few quotes to ponder over


*NO WORKS REQUIRED
You certainly got me thinking...

But do we trust the works of God in us? Or do we say they cannot be done due to the fact that we have failed?

Good questions. I don't know how to answer. All I can say is that God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows what can and can't be done by each one of us.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart” (Jeremiah 1:5)
"And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Mat 10:30), etc...

and don't worry - being saved by Grace, things become easy as pie....

"For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light." (Mat 11:30)
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Re: Revisiting OSAS

Post by Starhunter »

That's really wonderful.
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