The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[RickD]

Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.

Talk about blind faith!

So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?

Ken

Extremely confused!

[Kenny]

Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.

Talk about blind faith!

So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?

Ken

Extremely confused!

Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.

Ken

[Mallz]

I'd say your in a general category of Agnostic, Kenny. That's just what I see though.

[neo-x]

Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
-
-
-

By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.

Talk about blind faith!

So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?

Ken

Extremely confused!

Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshiped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.

Ken

I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.

Some atheists have faith, like I know some who don't believe in God but do believe in ghosts or some believe aliens exist etc. Having faith comes naturally to all humans, well almost all humans. Some don't have faith in a God/Gods. And its important to realize it and not irritate the other person.

This should go both ways.

I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.

Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.

[RickD]

Ken wrote:

Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.

Ken

As for the underlined, if you are open to the possibility that God may exist, then you're not an atheist.

Somewhere along the line, someone changed the definition of an atheist. It has meant someone who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist. Atheism, contrary to what many avowed atheists say, IS a belief. It's a belief that God does not exist.

Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.

[Philip]

Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.

So, if you are reading this, are you a SINCERE agnostic or an INSINSERE one?

And so, if one is at least OPEN to the possibility God exists - and sincerely WANTS TO KNOW the truth of the matter - then they should be diligently searching, studying and PRAYING. Praying? Yes, PRAYING - as IF one is TRULY open to the mere possibility that God may exist, and "if" He actually does, why not do a DIRECT search for Him? Why not, unbeknownst to anyone else, simply ask God TO REVEAL HIMSELF to you? That is, IF you are a SINCERE agnostic. Because there is also such a thing as what I'll call the INSINCERE agnostic - that is, an agnostic who doesn't know whether God exists, but He also doesn't really want to know or actually care. OR, he figures, instead, that if He exists, God should come to him - looking at personally and diligently searching as something that's only for religious folks - which he knows he's clearly not. EVERY sincere agnostic (and atheist) should self-effacingly know the repercussions for his ending/next world-results, if he happens to be wrong. UNLESS, of course, there's NO possibility that there is a God. Which is a belief that, believed with certainty, makes one, instead, an atheist.

Make no mistake about it: an agnostic who doesn't search for God is also a person who is deliberately AVOIDING Him. You certainly don't search for something you don't particularly care about or don't want to find. But the Bible says, "seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." Or if you build an intellectual/mental/emotional barrier wall, self-designed so as to not let any potentially affirming evidences of God getting through, then... THEY WON'T get through. You get what you seek - as well as what you DON'T seek!

[Kenny]

Ken wrote:

Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.

Ken

As for the underlined, if you are open to the possibility that God may exist, then you're not an atheist.

Somewhere along the line, someone changed the definition of an atheist. It has meant someone who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist. Atheism, contrary to what many avowed atheists say, IS a belief. It's a belief that God does not exist.

Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.

I think you are misunderstanding me again. I said I am open to the possibility what a person CHOOSES to call God may exist. Using the example I gave, if a person chooses to call a Golden Calf God, it would be foolish for me to look at this chunk of metal and say it doesn't exist, it would be just as foolish for me to claim he has no right to call it his God. Again; if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?

Ken

[Mallz]

if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?

Hmm..

Some people believed a golden calf was God. You obviously see the golden calf is not God, but you believe their belief.
Right?
So the question is..
Do you believe there could be anything existent such as God?

[Philip]

THE question is not about golden calves or whatever other imaginary gods people might assert exist. THE question is, do you think there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible (Father, Son & Spirit), in which Jesus came from Heaven and took on flesh, lived amongst the Jews, suffered, was crucified, was Resurrected/appeared to many, returned to Heaven/will come again exists? The rest of the mumbo-jumbo about who might believe in whatever else, and who are you to deny what OTHERS consider to be god, is irrelevant.

Kenny, DO you or DO YOU NOT believe there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible exists? As THAT is the ONLY question relevant to the purposes of this board and discussion!

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding me again. I said I am open to the possibility what a person CHOOSES to call God may exist. Using the example I gave, if a person chooses to call a Golden Calf God, it would be foolish for me to look at this chunk of metal and say it doesn't exist, it would be just as foolish for me to claim he has no right to call it his God. Again; if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?

Ken

Kenny,

Do you leave open the possibility that the God of the bible exists? Yes or no.

[edwardmurphy]

I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.

Ken

Well, if you don't believe in gods then you're an atheist. If you're aware that your neighbor worships his BMW then you're still an atheist - his beliefs have nothing to do with yours and his BMW obviously exists. If you assume that your neighbor's BMW is a god because you've seen him worshiping it, well, I'm not really sure what that makes you, other than silly. An idolator by proxy, perhaps?

I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.

I'm not Ken, but I thank you. Calling atheism a leap of faith, and sticking to that position in the face of all evidence to the contrary, is disingenuous and deliberately irritating. It gets tiresome after a while.

I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.

Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.

Again, thank you. I appreciate your sincerity and civility.

[RickD]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

[Kenny]

I'd say your in a general category of Agnostic, Kenny. That's just what I see though.

Agnostic is about knowledge; not belief.

K

[Kenny]

I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.

Some atheists have faith, like I know some who don't believe in God but do believe in ghosts or some believe aliens exist etc. Having faith comes naturally to all humans, well almost all humans. Some don't have faith in a God/Gods. And its important to realize it and not irritate the other person.

This should go both ways.

I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.

Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.

Excellent points; I agree.

Ken

[Kenny]

if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?

Hmm..

Some people believed a golden calf was God. You obviously see the golden calf is not God, but you believe their belief.
Right?

I know the chunk of metal they worship and call God exists.

So the question is..
Do you believe there could be anything existent such as God?

There is nothing in existence that I call God.

Ken