The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[Kenny]

THE question is not about golden calves or whatever other imaginary gods people might assert exist. THE question is, do you think there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible (Father, Son & Spirit), in which Jesus came from Heaven and took on flesh, lived amongst the Jews, suffered, was crucified, was Resurrected/appeared to many, returned to Heaven/will come again exists? The rest of the mumbo-jumbo about who might believe in whatever else, and who are you to deny what OTHERS consider to be god, is irrelevant.

Kenny, DO you or DO YOU NOT believe there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible exists? As THAT is the ONLY question relevant to the purposes of this board and discussion!

I do not believe there is even a possibility that the God as described in the Bible exists; but then I also realize atheism is not defined by a belief in the God of the bible only.

Ken

[Kenny]

Ken wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding me again. I said I am open to the possibility what a person CHOOSES to call God may exist. Using the example I gave, if a person chooses to call a Golden Calf God, it would be foolish for me to look at this chunk of metal and say it doesn't exist, it would be just as foolish for me to claim he has no right to call it his God. Again; if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?

Ken

Kenny,

Do you leave open the possibility that the God of the bible exists? Yes or no.

No.

K

[neo-x]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

Here is a question for you Rick, do you have faith that Kali (the hindu Goddess of death) does not exist or do you know she doesn't?

[RickD]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

Here is a question for you Rick, do you have faith that Kali (the hindu Goddess of death) does not exist or do you know she doesn't?

Up until your mentioning Kali, I'd never heard of her. But I wouldn't say I know she doesn't exist. I'd just say she's not God.


Why?

[Philip]

Ken: I do not believe there is even a possibility that the God as described in the Bible exists; but then I also realize atheism is not defined by a belief in the God of the bible only.

Ken

Then, at least for the purposes of our discussion, YOU are an atheist! Technically, as you've not ruled out the possible existence of other so-called "gods," someone, somewhere might call you an agnostic (Webster's, perhaps), but not me. Our measuring stick on this board is THE (only) God, and His name is "Jesus!"

So, Ken, what would it take for you to believe that the God of the Bible at least MIGHT exist? What would you require?

[neo-x]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

Here is a question for you Rick, do you have faith that Kali (the hindu Goddess of death) does not exist or do you know she doesn't?

Up until your mentioning Kali, I'd never heard of her. But I wouldn't say I know she doesn't exist. I'd just say she's not God.


Why?

But is that a faith or lack of knowledge? If its the former, its the atheist reasoning, if its the latter than agnostic, not much different from what most atheists or agnostics do. Lack of faith in God, is just that. Whether you think its belief or not, does not make any iota of a difference in real world. Convincing atheists of this is not going to work because they don't think its that. People don't believe in God for academics.

Just trying to say that the point you guys are pursuing is futile, its just going to irritate the other person and the point, which is a valid one, will not be conveyed.

[RickD]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

Here is a question for you Rick, do you have faith that Kali (the hindu Goddess of death) does not exist or do you know she doesn't?

Up until your mentioning Kali, I'd never heard of her. But I wouldn't say I know she doesn't exist. I'd just say she's not God.


Why?

But is that a faith or lack of knowledge? If its the former, its the atheist reasoning, if its the latter than agnostic, not much different from what most atheists or agnostics do. Lack of faith in God, is just that. Whether you think its belief or not, does not make any iota of a difference in real world. Convincing atheists of this is not going to work because they don't think its that. People don't believe in God for academics.

Just trying to say that the point you guys are pursuing is futile, its just going to irritate the other person and the point, which is a valid one, will not be conveyed.

Sorry Neo,

I'm not following you.
An atheist may believe God doesn't exist because of a lack of knowledge on his part. Or just because he refuses to want to be accountable to someone besides himself. Or an atheist may be very educated on all the arguments for the existence of God, but just refuses to believe because of evil in the world, or any other reason.

My point was that an atheist is one who believes God doesn't exist. Some atheists change the definition to mean one who doesn't believe in God. And I think they change the definition because they don't want to admit to a belief system, and then have to justify that belief system, thereby trying to put the onus on the believer to prove his(the believer's) belief system.

So in reality, an atheist doesn't just lack a belief in God, an atheist has a positive belief that God doesn't exist.

In short, it's a cop out.

Edit-
So to go with your Kali comparison...
If I said that I don't believe in Kali, that would be what some atheists are trying to say, with regards to God.
If I were an atheist in regards to Kali, I'd have to say that I believe Kali doesn't exist. Then, I'd have to back that belief.

By saying I don't believe in Kali, it's a way to put the onus to back my belief, off of myself and on to someone else.

[neo-x]

Of course atheists have faith in atheism.

As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.

Here is a question for you Rick, do you have faith that Kali (the hindu Goddess of death) does not exist or do you know she doesn't?

Up until your mentioning Kali, I'd never heard of her. But I wouldn't say I know she doesn't exist. I'd just say she's not God.


Why?

But is that a faith or lack of knowledge? If its the former, its the atheist reasoning, if its the latter than agnostic, not much different from what most atheists or agnostics do. Lack of faith in God, is just that. Whether you think its belief or not, does not make any iota of a difference in real world. Convincing atheists of this is not going to work because they don't think its that. People don't believe in God for academics.

Just trying to say that the point you guys are pursuing is futile, its just going to irritate the other person and the point, which is a valid one, will not be conveyed.

Sorry Neo,

I'm not following you.
An atheist may believe God doesn't exist because of a lack of knowledge on his part. Or just because he refuses to want to be accountable to someone besides himself. Or an atheist may be very educated on all the arguments for the existence of God, but just refuses to believe because of evil in the world, or any other reason.

My point was that an atheist is one who believes God doesn't exist. Some atheists change the definition to mean one who doesn't believe in God. And I think they change the definition because they don't want to admit to a belief system, and then have to justify that belief system, thereby trying to put the onus on the believer to prove his(the believer's) belief system.

So in reality, an atheist doesn't just lack a belief in God, an atheist has a positive belief that God doesn't exist.

In short, it's a cop out.

Well, good luck with that reasoning, let me know if it ever works out. In my experience it never does.

[RickD]

neo wrote:
Well, good luck with that reasoning, let me know if it ever works out.

It always works out to show how those atheists aren't willing to step up and back their belief.

[Kenny]

Ken: I do not believe there is even a possibility that the God as described in the Bible exists; but then I also realize atheism is not defined by a belief in the God of the bible only.

Ken

So, Ken, what would it take for you to believe that the God of the Bible at least MIGHT exist? What would you require?

What I consider credible evidence, personal experience, I could probably list a hundred scenarios that would convince me the God of the bible is real; many of which would probably require a re-writing of the bible though.

Ken

[RickD]

Ken: I do not believe there is even a possibility that the God as described in the Bible exists; but then I also realize atheism is not defined by a belief in the God of the bible only.

Ken

So, Ken, what would it take for you to believe that the God of the Bible at least MIGHT exist? What would you require?

What I consider credible evidence, personal experience, I could probably list a hundred scenarios that would convince me the God of the bible is real; many of which would probably require a re-writing of the bible though.

Ken

Or a redefining of God...

[Kenny]

So in reality, an atheist doesn't just lack a belief in God, an atheist has a positive belief that God doesn't exist.

So what do you call someone who just lacks a belief in God, but does not have a positive belief that God doesn't exist?

Ken

[Kenny]

Ken: I do not believe there is even a possibility that the God as described in the Bible exists; but then I also realize atheism is not defined by a belief in the God of the bible only.

Ken

So, Ken, what would it take for you to believe that the God of the Bible at least MIGHT exist? What would you require?

What I consider credible evidence, personal experience, I could probably list a hundred scenarios that would convince me the God of the bible is real; many of which would probably require a re-writing of the bible though.

Ken

Or a redefining of God...

Or perhaps redefining of what people SAY about God.

Ken

[RickD]

So in reality, an atheist doesn't just lack a belief in God, an atheist has a positive belief that God doesn't exist.

So what do you call someone who just lacks a belief in God, but does not have a positive belief that God doesn't exist?

Ken

In your case Kenny, you're not being realistic. You say the idea of a monotheistic God, is not God. Or at least not a God you can believe in. So, while you say you don't have a positive belief that God doesn't exist, you really have no idea about who God really is.

[edwardmurphy]

My point was that an atheist is one who believes God doesn't exist. Some atheists change the definition to mean one who doesn't believe in God. And I think they change the definition because they don't want to admit to a belief system, and then have to justify that belief system, thereby trying to put the onus on the believer to prove his(the believer's) belief system.

I'm going to lay this out as well as I can and then I'm going to do my best to move on, since it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll all get carpal tunnel syndrome long before we reach a consensus.

I'm not sure why you get to define what it means to be an atheist, but I'm not inclined to accept it. I imagine that you'd react the same way if I tried to tell you what it means to be a Christian.

Your definition is a semantic game aimed at shifting the burden of proof so that it's shared equally by theists and atheists. That would be wrong. The burden of proof invariably lies with the party making the claim, and theism is not an exception to that rule. Since "Gods exist" obviously came before "Prove it," the burden of proof lies with the theist. In other words, it's your job to prove that you're right, not my job to prove that you're wrong.

It really makes no difference whether an atheist says "I don't accept your assertion" or "Your gods don't exist." The burden of proof remains firmly with the person making the initial claim, regardless of how the atheist chooses to express his or her skepticism. If I say gods don't exist I'm not making a claim of my own, I'm still just dismissing yours.

Also, atheism isn't a belief system. Religions are vast and complex belief systems. Atheism is the rejection of religions and the gods they're founded on. Calling atheism a belief system is akin to calling bald a hair color.

Some atheists do feel the need to create or find a system of beliefs to help provide a framework for their lives, since "Religion is BS" falls short in that regard. That's where philosophy and rational humanism come in. I also know atheists who practice Buddhist meditation or attend Unitarian church. Personally, I'm content to live my life without any formal system of beliefs, apart from a few vague guiding principles - be kind to people, be a good husband and father, tell the truth, if you screw up do your best to make it right, and so forth.

An atheist may believe God doesn't exist because of a lack of knowledge on his part. Or just because he refuses to want to be accountable to someone besides himself.

Do you seriously believe that being accountable to no one but myself is easier than being accountable to a just and loving god who will forgive my mistakes?