preterism antisemetic?

bob2010 · Post by **bob2010** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:00 pm

Posted by PHIL121

One of those things is that preterism is blasphemy, because it is inherently anti-semetic.

ok, phil, here is your new topic. now, defend your view!

this had better be good.

PHIL121 · Post by **PHIL121** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:37 pm

Glad you asked!

First of all, preterism presupposes that all of Revelation was fulfilled with the Destuction of the Temple of Jerusalem. Yet, Christ did not return then, nor were the Jews delievered at that time. In fact, it was only the beginning of their sufferings.

Preterism is a replacement theology. It says that covenant God made with the Jews has now been replaced with the Covenant of the Gentile Church. This is an anathama to the very first prophetic Scripture, Genesis 12:3

"I will bless them that bless thee, and him that currseth thee I will curse"

By adopting such a Biblical interpretation, one places himself into a 'select group' reserved especially for the children of Abraham.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:15 am

This charge is common and is the result of a weak and cowardly approach to the issues. (This is what people do when they cannot debate on an intellectual level). Preterism is no more antisemitic than it is anti-mormon, anti-watchtower, etc. I could just as soon call Dispensationalism anti-semitic, since it anxiously awaits for 2/3 of the current nation of Israel to be killed off. They believe that Israel must once again be made desolate.

Now that we are finished (I hope) with the name calling, let's deal with the issues.

Preterists are NOT "anti-semitic" (Jew-haters). We simple recognize Judaism for what it is, a false religion. They are NOT God's Chosen People? That statement is no more "anti-semitic" than saying that "Muslims are not God's Chosen People" is anti-Arab.

God promised Abraham that he would make of him a “great nation” (Genesis 12:2), and that “in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 22:18). This nation was to be a “holy nation” (Exodus 19:6).

What does it mean to be a Holy Nation? Is a nation holy simply because the DNA of it's citizens matches Abraham's (which, by the way, would eliminate most of the people living in modern day Israel)? Does the term “holy nation” fit some godless country that exists in the Middle East founded by the United Nations in 1948? Hardly. God is not a racist. He never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either the Old or New Testament. If that were the case, then Esau (whom God hated — Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13) and Ishmael would have a claim on God's Covenant Blessings. So would King Saul, Judas Iscariot, and the modern day Palestinians. Likewise, Ruth (a Moabite), Rahab (a Canaanite), and Urriah (the Hittite), (two of which were Christ's ancestors) would never have experienced sanctification. Physical circumcision made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6).

A holy nation is set apart by God based on obedience to His Covenant. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew who was disobedient was to be “cut off from the congregation of Israel” (Exodus 12:19). Does this mean that God changed the person's genetic code so that he was no longer a Hebrew? Of course not. It means that he was no longer part of the “holy nation”, God's visible church here on earth. The same is true in the New Testament (ex. 1 Cor. 5:1-12). Sadly, the judicial powers of the modern church are almost non-existent.

In the same Exodus passage, God tells Moses “And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." (Exodus 12:48-49). Again, God does not make this person's DNA match that of Abraham, but instead sets him apart “as a native of the land” in His holy nation. Thus, even in the Old Testament, God never considered anyone a “Jew” based on race alone. Both Jew and Gentiles were to have “one law”.

This is even more obvious the New Testament. The Pharisees took pride in their linage, but were not members of God's “holy nation”. John the Baptist gave them this warning.

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:7-10).

The Judaists even bragged to Jesus about their heritage, proclaiming “Abraham is our father.” (John 8:39). But Jesus was very clear with His response. Contrary to popular dispensational belief, Judaism is not “Old Testament religion”, but a demon-inspired, Talmudic cult. When the Pharisees rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46). The god of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44). (Phil, I guess that scripture would make Jesus "anti-semitic" ...please!). Only Born Again believers in Jesus Christ are considered true Jews. Others are not true Jews, but of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9). As Christ rejecters, they are no longer “God's Chosen People”. Jesus told them,"… the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” (Matthew 21:43). This nation is His “holy nation”, the Church of Jesus Christ, the new “Israel of God”, and the Galatian church was so called (Galatians 6:16).

Paul writes “…for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Romans 9:6), “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart…” (Romans 2:29). “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29). In Christ, all ethnic, cultural, economic and generational walls have been removed. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). If Jesus Christ removed these barriers, who are we to try and build them back up?

There is more. While the modern dispensational church keeps it's eyes glued to the Middle East, awaiting some sort of Theological Extravaganza, Paul clarified that the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 22:18) is being fulfilled through the church, (and the Galatian Gentile church at that). “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 - So much for the idea that the church age was invisible to the Old Testament prophets.) As Christians, we are members of the New, Heavenly Jerusalem which is the one and only bride of Christ, the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22).

For more info on "The Bloody Future of Israel In Dispensational Eschatology", check out http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Th ... Israel.htm

PHIL121 · Post by **PHIL121** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:28 am

puritan lad wrote: Preterists are NOT "anti-semitic" (Jew-haters). We simple recognize Judaism for what it is, a false religion. They are NOT God's Chosen People? That statement is no more "anti-semitic" than saying that "Muslims are not God's Chosen People" is anti-Arab. God promised Abraham that he would make of him a “great nation” (Genesis 12:2), and that “in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 22:18).
This nation was to be a “holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). What does it mean to be a Holy Nation? Is a nation holy simply because the DNA of it's citizens matches Abraham's (which, by the way, would eliminate most of the people living in modern day Israel)? Does the term “holy nation” fit some godless country that exists in the Middle East founded by the United Nations in 1948? Hardly. .

Not only anti-semetic, but blasphemous.
Judiasm is "a false religion" ?? So all the prophets of the Old Testament were practicing a "false religion"?Christians might as well throw the entire Old Testament in the trash can if this is true.

Your emphisis on geneolgy and reference to Israel as a "godless nation" suggests you believe that Jews lack Faith. I guess you would consider the Holocaust the Jews simply "getting what they deserved".

puritan lad wrote: God is not a racist. .

But you certainly appear to be.

puritan lad wrote:He never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either the Old or New Testament. .

No, he saved them on their Faith. Again I ask, are you denying Jews lack Faith??

puritan lad wrote: Physical circumcision made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6)..

For the Gentiles, yes. But the Jews are still living under the Old Covenant.

puritan lad wrote: A holy nation is set apart by God based on obedience to His Covenant. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew who was disobedient was to be “cut off from the congregation of Israel” (Exodus 12:19). Does this mean that God changed the person's genetic code so that he was no longer a Hebrew? Of course not. It means that he was no longer part of the “holy nation”, God's visible church here on earth. The same is true in the New Testament (ex. 1 Cor. 5:1-12)..

When David committed adultry with Bathsheba was he "cut off from the holy nation"? Was he cut off when he had Uriah killed? Was Moses cut off when he murdered an Egyptian? The Old Teastament is full of examples of Men of God fell into sin, repented, and were redeemed.

Just like the Nation of Israel was.

puritan lad wrote: Sadly, the judicial powers of the modern church are almost non-existent.).

Perhaps you should convert to Islam then. Their faith is inherent in their law.

And you DO realize legalism is a SIN don't you?

puritan lad wrote: Again, God does not make this person's DNA match that of Abraham, but instead sets him apart “as a native of the land” in His holy nation. Thus, even in the Old Testament, God never considered anyone a “Jew” based on race alone.

You continue to emphisize race in your arguements, infering that Judism is not a religion but a race. Perhaps you should change you name to "Aryian lad"

puritan lad wrote: The Judaists even bragged to Jesus about their heritage, proclaiming “Abraham is our father.” (John 8:39). But Jesus was very clear with His response.

Yes...he said "If you were Abraham's children, youwould do the work of Abraham". This CLEARLY shows Jesus had no intention of replacing the Abrahamic Covenant, only adding to it.

puritan lad wrote: Contrary to popular dispensational belief, Judaism is not “Old Testament religion”, but a demon-inspired, Talmudic cult.

I think you make the arguement for Catholicism with all its complex doctrine and dogma.

puritan lad wrote: When the Pharisees rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46). The god of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44). (Phil, I guess that scripture would make Jesus "anti-semitic" ...please!).

Jesus was speaking to a specific sect, the Pharisees. Lumping all Jews with the Pharisees only goes to show your anti-semitism.

puritan lad wrote: Only Born Again believers in Jesus Christ are considered true Jews. Others are not true Jews, but of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9).

Once again, you group all Jews with the Pharises. Such generalizations are clearly racist.

puritan lad wrote: As Christ rejecters, they are no longer “God's Chosen People”. Jesus told them,"… the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” (Matthew 21:43). This nation is His “holy nation”, the Church of Jesus Christ, the new “Israel of God”

The biblical scholar Gaebelien points out, the Gentile Church is refered to as "the body of Christ", "the bride of Christ", "the habitation of God by the Spirit", and "the Lambs wife" no where is the Church refered to as "a nation". He suggests this passage refers to the faithful remnant of Israel.

And he made that conclusion LONG BEFORE Israel became a nation.

Other commontators like Meyer, Olshausen, and Fausset say the passage refers not to Gentiles in particular, but the whole of of the future subjects of the kingdom.

puritan lad wrote: Paul writes “…for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Romans 9:6), “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart…” (Romans 2:29). “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29). In Christ, all ethnic, cultural, economic and generational walls have been removed. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). If Jesus Christ removed these barriers, who are we to try and build them back up?

Oh my...you spend the first half of your post arguing that Jews are a "race"and not a religion, now you begin singing "Kum Bayyah" that Christ breaks down all barriers.

Hypocracy at it's finest. I guess you never learned much from the Pharissees.

puritan lad wrote:There is more. While the modern dispensational church keeps it's eyes glued to the Middle East, awaiting some sort of Theological Extravaganza, Paul clarified that the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 22:18) is being fulfilled through the church, (and the Galatian Gentile church at that). “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 - So much for the idea that the church age was invisible to the Old Testament prophets.)

You mention Galatians 3:8 , but fail to mention Galatians 3:9 which says "So then those who are offaith are blessed with believing Abraham". Again I ask, are denying that Jews have faith?

puritan lad wrote:As Christians, we are members of the New, Heavenly Jerusalem which is the one and only bride of Christ, the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22).

Alford says of the passage in Hebrews you referenced "It is clearly wrong to understand this shaking as the mere breaking down of Judaism...or the of anthing that shall be fulfilled during the Christian economy, short of its glorious end and accomplishement."

While there is muchdebate over this particluar passage most scholars believethe passage to refer to the uphevals that will occur with the Second Advent.

And you STILL haven't address Genesis 12:3. was God lying when he told Abraham "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you"?
Beiderwolf says of this passage "This seems to have been wonderfully fulfilled in the history of the dispersion. It has invariably fared ill with the people who have persecuted the Jews, and the favor of God seems to have been with those who have given the Jews protection. Will the future still more remarkably fulfill this prediction?"

He wrote this passage in 1924. Before the Holocaust and before the Restoration of Israel.
The answer to his question seems to be "yes"

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:01 am

PHIL121 wrote:Not only anti-semetic, but blasphemous.
Judiasm is "a false religion" ?? So all the prophets of the Old Testament were practicing a "false religion"?Christians might as well throw the entire Old Testament in the trash can if this is true.

What does modern Judaism have to do with the Old Testament? They read the Talmud. Besides, there is no such thing as a belief in the Old Testament that includes the rejection of Christ. Jesus said so (John 5:46). I'll take His word for it.

PHIL121 wrote:Your emphisis on geneolgy and reference to Israel as a "godless nation" suggests you believe that Jews lack Faith. I guess you would consider the Holocaust the Jews simply "getting what they deserved".
puritan lad wrote: God is not a racist. .
But you certainly appear to be.

puritan lad wrote:He never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either the Old or New Testament.

PHIL121 wrote:No, he saved them on their Faith. Again I ask, are you denying Jews lack Faith??

Yes, If you reject Christ, then you lack faith. I'll do you favor and ignore your stupid remarks on the holocaust and racism.

puritan lad wrote: Physical circumcision made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6)..

PHIL121 wrote:For the Gentiles, yes. But the Jews are still living under the Old Covenant.

Says who? Where is the temple? the sacrifice? the High priest? What does scripture say? You'd better read Hebrews 9 and 10 again. Are you suggesting that a Hebrew can get to heaven while rejecting Christ in favor of bloody lambs, goats, and pigeons?

After reading the rest of your post, I'd decided to let the rest of your argument stand on their own merit. Good Luck...

PHIL121 · Post by **PHIL121** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:00 pm

puritan lad wrote:What does modern Judaism have to do with the Old Testament? They read the Talmud. .

Are you implying the Talmud has nothing in common with the Old Testament??

puritan lad wrote: Yes, If you reject Christ, then you lack faith.

So then what motivates suicide bombers to blow themselves up? And how has Judaism survived so long?

puritan lad wrote:I'll do you favor and ignore your stupid remarks on the holocaust and racism..

Why not? It's what bigots always do. Same goes for judges, lawyers, and other public servents who consider themselves above the law.

puritan lad wrote: Physical circumcision made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6)..

PHIL121 wrote:For the Gentiles, yes. But the Jews are still living under the Old Covenant.

Says who? Where is the temple? the sacrifice? the High priest? What does scripture say? You'd better read Hebrews 9 and 10 again. Are you suggesting that a Hebrew can get to heaven while rejecting Christ in favor of bloody lambs, goats, and pigeons?[/quote]

No, I'm suggesting Jews may get into Heaven by their FAITH and by following the prescribed rituals of Atonement that have been practiced for thousands of years. Much of which doesn't include animal sacrifice.

But as an anti-semite, you wouldn't want to mention that.

puritan lad wrote:After reading the rest of your post, I'd decided to let the rest of your argument stand on their own merit. .

Undoubtedly because you lack both the Biblical knowledge and the intellectual capacity to refute it.

Such are the tactics of a bigot and idelaouge.

And you STILL haven't addressed Genesis 12:3. was God lying when he told Abraham "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you"?

Afraid to answer the question??

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:20 pm

At the risk of pushing you over the edge, I'll answer the parts of your post the I deem worthy to respond to.

PHIL121 wrote:No, I'm suggesting Jews may get into Heaven by their FAITH and by following the prescribed rituals of Atonement that have been practiced for thousands of years. Much of which doesn't include animal sacrifice.

The Bible disagrees,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

PHIL121 wrote:And you STILL haven't addressed Genesis 12:3. was God lying when he told Abraham "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you"?

Afraid to answer the question??

I did. Who are Abraham's children? Those of the Christian faith. (Gal. 3:8-9).

Now if you want to have a debate on the issue, please provide more substance and less hysteria. I don't need to respond to your baseless charges. If you have proof then "bear witness to the evil".

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:32 pm

Wow. I've made the big time :)

Check this out...

http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/entries/957

bob2010 · Post by **bob2010** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:30 pm

seems to me that puritan lad is doing a fairly good job, so ill comment on this one thing.

PHIL121 wrote:First of all, preterism presupposes that all of Revelation was fulfilled with the Destuction of the Temple of Jerusalem.

there are two sides to preterism, the partial and full. a partial preterist holds that the prophecy in Revelation up to chapter 20 has been fufilled. that leaves the the reign of Christ (or we are in the middle of that, depending on who you ask) and everything after that.
The full preterist holds that all of Revelation has been fufilled.

puritan lad wrote:Wow. I've made the big time

Check this out...

http://journals.aol.com/kweinschen/Veritas/entries/957

im thinking about nominating Phil for tektonics.org screwball of the month.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:54 pm

<posts removed>

This thread is no locked due to the personal turn it took.

Kurieuo