The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[Kurieuo]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

[Nessa]

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

What if the dinosaur was eating icecream

[RickD]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

I agree K.

Belief in God is not an extraordinary claim at all. God is logically necessary.

I see two options for those that don't see God's existence as logically necessary.

1) they simply don't understand arguments for The necessity of God's existence

2) they simply refuse to see

[Kenny]

RickD
Do you know that makes no sense? A specific place is included in every place. If you're going to question God's omnipresence, you need a better example than that.

Ken
When God passed by Moses and allowed Moses to see his back side, you can't be everywhere and still pass someone at the same time. When God walked in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the evening, by definition you can’t be everywhere and still walk at the same time.

RickD
God was sorry that He had made humankind because people generally did
not want a relationship with God. They insisted on living life independent
of God and consequently destroying themselves in sin. He was sorry over
what His special creation had become. This is an anthropopathism: Moses
described the Lord as having human emotions

Ken
Why would God be sorry if he knew this was going to happen before he even created man?

RickD
The Lord would not arbitrarily destroy them [the people of Sodom and Gomorah]. As a fair and just judge, He would examine the evidence and then reward their deeds appropriately.

Ken
Why would God need to examine the evidence, and why would he need someone to tell him what was going on if he already knew everything?

RickD
Understand anthropopathism, and anthropomorphism, and you'll see that there is no issue with God's omniscience. And therefore, your issue with the God of the bible not being the creator of the universe, is founded on your mis-interpretation of scripture.

Ken
The problem is not with the display of human emotions, it’s the fact that he seems unaware of some things.

A bigger problem I see is the claim of omnibenevolence; (which was not an option) When I look at the treatment of people like Adam & Eve, Job, and the people of Egypt under Moses, it doesn’t seem to be fair treatment. Now of course this is my subjective opinion, and perhaps God’s idea of “good” and “fair” is different than mine and perhaps by his definition they were treated fairly, but if it doesn’t meet my definition of what is good and fair, I believe it is wrong; no matter who says otherwise. I know that may sound arrogant to some of you guys but that is how I see it.


Ken

[Kenny]

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

What if the dinosaur was eating icecream

Only if it's a hot day. It would be foolish to believe that even a dinosaur would be stupid enough to eat Ice Cream on a cold day.

Ken

[Nessa]

Only if it's a hot day. It would be foolish to believe that even a dinosaur would be stupid enough to eat Ice Cream on a cold day.

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

It is hard to see an intelligent person choose to use imagination instead of logic and reason and then actually think that misunderstanding the bible is still a good reason to still live by imagination.I'm afraid that until a person can use reason and decides to face the facts of reality that all things have a cause and all things are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence,until a person understands the reality of this? I'm not sure if correcting them about the bible will help much,because even if you convinced them they were wrong about the bible? They still must choose to stop believing things that are impossible if they really care about how we got here.Because once you decide to live by logic,reason and the reality around you it is easy to believe all-powerful God started everything off and created it by his will,just like in reality here in our world inwhich we live in and we know is true.

[Kenny]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

Belief in God may not be an extraordinary claim for someone who already believe he exists, but for a skeptic like myself, it is. I did read over your reply to Ed and though doing a good job of describing your views, I didn’t find your claim of a single God as a logical necessary for existence, believable.
Like when you mentioned my claim of the possibility of the physical world always have existing, weather the physical world is contingent or not; you didn’t explain why it is impossible for it to have always existed, and things evolve into what they are now.

Ken

[RickD]

RickD
Do you know that makes no sense? A specific place is included in every place. If you're going to question God's omnipresence, you need a better example than that.

Ken
When God passed by Moses and allowed Moses to see his back side, you can't be everywhere and still pass someone at the same time. When God walked in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the evening, by definition you can’t be everywhere and still walk at the same time.

RickD
God was sorry that He had made humankind because people generally did
not want a relationship with God. They insisted on living life independent
of God and consequently destroying themselves in sin. He was sorry over
what His special creation had become. This is an anthropopathism: Moses
described the Lord as having human emotions

Ken
Why would God be sorry if he knew this was going to happen before he even created man?

RickD
The Lord would not arbitrarily destroy them [the people of Sodom and Gomorah]. As a fair and just judge, He would examine the evidence and then reward their deeds appropriately.

Ken
Why would God need to examine the evidence, and why would he need someone to tell him what was going on if he already knew everything?

RickD
Understand anthropopathism, and anthropomorphism, and you'll see that there is no issue with God's omniscience. And therefore, your issue with the God of the bible not being the creator of the universe, is founded on your mis-interpretation of scripture.

Ken
The problem is not with the display of human emotions, it’s the fact that he seems unaware of some things.

Kenny,
I told you that you need to understand anthropomorphism, and anthropopathism. It's clear the you don't understand these. If you did, you'd see that all of the issues you mentioned above, are not really issues at all.
Do some research. Study anthropomorphism, and anthropopathism. If you have questions, start a thread.

ken wrote:
A bigger problem I see is the claim of omnibenevolence; (which was not an option) When I look at the treatment of people like Adam & Eve, Job, and the people of Egypt under Moses, it doesn’t seem to be fair treatment. Now of course this is my subjective opinion, and perhaps God’s idea of “good” and “fair” is different than mine and perhaps by his definition they were treated fairly, but if it doesn’t meet my definition of what is good and fair, I believe it is wrong; no matter who says otherwise. I know that may sound arrogant to some of you guys but that is how I see it.

God is not fair. If he were fair, and we all got what we deserved...well, you know the rest.

[Nessa]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair"?

[RickD]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair" what makes you think that your 'fair' is really 'fair'?

Are you asking Kenny, or me?

[Nessa]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair" what makes you think that your 'fair' is really 'fair'?

Are you asking Kenny, or me?

Sorry, forgot to put name.. meant kenny

I'm just interested where the idea of fairness for him ultimately comes from

Why should life be fair?

[abelcainsbrother]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

Belief in God may not be an extraordinary claim for someone who already believe he exists, but for a skeptic like myself, it is. I did read over your reply to Ed and though doing a good job of describing your views, I didn’t find your claim of a single God as a logical necessary for existence, believable.
Like when you mentioned my claim of the possibility of the physical world always have existing, weather the physical world is contingent or not; you didn’t explain why it is impossible for it to have always existed, and things evolve into what they are now.

Ken

OK then,tell us about something in our world that did not have a cause,was caused but not by something else and was not willed into existence?Think about this,I'm serious,I'm not trying to one up you,etc.I'm just trying to get you to realize how hard it is and how much faith it requires to reject an all a powerful creator in order to somehow imagine everything in our world happening in a way that defies reality.It is much much harder to believe what you do,now I know you'll try to deny I know what you assume by rejecting God,but the difference is I have a very good reason to believe God created the universe because I know the facts of reality and you are defying reality.

Nothing ever happens without a cause and all things that are caused were caused by something else and they are willed into existence,but yet you are rejecting this for no reason.Because it is then impossible to have a universe if you reject God,there is nothing in our world to go by to defy this fact,nothing except imagination.Science cannot help you either which atheists tend to believe woo woo science that was developed by ignoring philosophy,the same thing you're doing because of it.

It is much much harder to believe things that you do to reject God who can create universes easy.

[Nessa]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

[RickD]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

Maybe someone else wants to chime in, but yes. And I thank God He's not fair. He sent His only begotten son to take upon himself, all the sins of the world. Jesus was without sin, yet he was crucified, and took our sins upon himself.


And since God requires justice for sin, sin was atoned for by one without sin. Unfair justice at its best, through Christ!