The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

Kurieuo wrote: NOW, going back to posts three whole pages ago, you wrote: "To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well."

I responded: "Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining."

Nessa responded: "What if the dinosaur was eating icecream :P" (err, ignore that one)

Rick responded: "I agree K. Belief in God is not an extraordinary claim at all. God is logically necessary.

With all our above exchanges identifying a logical foundation to everything we see in existence, removing God from the picture, it isn't really extraordinary that a Foundation exists. Really, the only thing that needs identifying is whether or not such possesses intelligence.

You know, for all the arguments and hoo-ha fussing made over a belief that God exists, it really doesn't seem far-fetched to believe in an intelligent foundation. It is even less far-fetched given we already witness matter and intelligence in the universe.
If the “intelligent foundation” is going to be the God as described in the bible, then it requires more than just a belief in an intelligent foundation; it also requires belief in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Satan and his Angeles, Noah’s Ark, Miracles of Jesus, the return of Jesus, etc. etc. IOW there is a host of other stuff that comes WITH God as this intelligent foundation, that to the non believer IS an extra ordinary claim.

Ken
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kurieuo »

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote: NOW, going back to posts three whole pages ago, you wrote: "To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well."

I responded: "Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining."

Nessa responded: "What if the dinosaur was eating icecream :P" (err, ignore that one)

Rick responded: "I agree K. Belief in God is not an extraordinary claim at all. God is logically necessary.

With all our above exchanges identifying a logical foundation to everything we see in existence, removing God from the picture, it isn't really extraordinary that a Foundation exists. Really, the only thing that needs identifying is whether or not such possesses intelligence.

You know, for all the arguments and hoo-ha fussing made over a belief that God exists, it really doesn't seem far-fetched to believe in an intelligent foundation. It is even less far-fetched given we already witness matter and intelligence in the universe.
If the “intelligent foundation” is going to be the God as described in the bible, then it requires more than just a belief in an intelligent foundation; it also requires belief in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Satan and his Angeles, Noah’s Ark, Miracles of Jesus, the return of Jesus, etc. etc. IOW there is a host of other stuff that comes WITH God as this intelligent foundation, that to the non believer IS an extra ordinary claim.
I agree that there is more I myself hold to. I'll be quick to concede that.
And furthermore agree many Christian claims are extraordinary and should be initially considered suspect by a healthy skepticism.
If I didn't, then well, I should just join the next cult when I'm told their leader is "God".

Mere belief in God however does not require such.
If I dropped my Christian beliefs tomorrow, then I'd still classify myself as Theist.
Purely for logical reasons, because I wouldn't be able to just undo what I see are persuasive reasons for God's existence.
There would just be no affiliation to any religion.

Happyflappydeist could perhaps best relate to this, because he was in such a position.
In my exchanges with him, he could see a logical case for God, but didn't believe any religion had it right.
Which is why he identified as Deist. I'm not sure what he really believes now.

There is also Aristotelian theology.
Which would speak of God as this intelligent foundation without all the "religious" trimmings.
Antony Flew departed from Atheism, to embrace something like it as I understand.
Last edited by Kurieuo on Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:

Are you saying if an evil man trust in christ but because of his character flaws, he goes about committing every atrocity imaginable, he still get into heaven?

Ken
Kenny,

That's just not reality. Since you're not a believer, I can't expect you to understand this. While hypothetically possible, your example just isn't based on any reality in the life of a believer.

You are taking a hypothetical situation that is so far down on the list of possibilities, and arguing against the doctrine of salvation.

You sound like pro abortionists that argue abortion is ok because it has to be if there's something that threatens the mother's life. While in reality, in the overwhelming majority of abortions, there's no threat to the life of the mother.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Kenny
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Are you saying if an evil man trust in christ but because of his character flaws, he goes about committing every atrocity imaginable, he still get into heaven?

Ken
Kenny,

That's just not reality. Since you're not a believer, I can't expect you to understand this. While hypothetically possible, your example just isn't based on any reality in the life of a believer.

You are taking a hypothetical situation that is so far down on the list of possibilities, and arguing against the doctrine of salvation.
I was actually arguing about your interpretation of the doctrine of salvation.
RickD wrote:You sound like pro abortionists that argue abortion is ok because it has to be if there's something that threatens the mother's life. While in reality, in the overwhelming majority of abortions, there's no threat to the life of the mother.
In the Southern states of the USA pre civil rights era, there were terrorists who were extreme racists often a part of groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the like; these people would not hesitate to tar & feather, beat, torture and murder blacks and Jewish people because of the deep hatred they had for them, and they were very unapologetic about it.
These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.

Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.

Ken
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

RickD wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Are you saying if an evil man trust in christ but because of his character flaws, he goes about committing every atrocity imaginable, he still get into heaven?

Ken


Kenny,

That's just not reality. Since you're not a believer, I can't expect you to understand this. While hypothetically possible, your example just isn't based on any reality in the life of a believer.

You are taking a hypothetical situation that is so far down on the list of possibilities, and arguing against the doctrine of salvation.


I was actually arguing about your interpretation of the doctrine of salvation.
y#-o
In the Southern states of the USA pre civil rights era, there were terrorists who were extreme racists often a part of groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the like; these people would not hesitate to tar & feather, beat, torture and murder blacks and Jewish people because of the deep hatred they had for them, and they were very unapologetic about it.
These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.
Obviously? How do you know that? I'm not saying they didn't, but since you asserted it, prove that they trusted Christ.
Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.
When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Kenny
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote: When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
No, my argument is the evil man who commits atrocities, yet still trusts Christ, is not as unrealistic as you claimed it to be.

Ken
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
No, my argument is the evil man who commits atrocities, yet still trusts Christ, is not as unrealistic as you claimed it to be.

Ken
And your point is....
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
No, my argument is the evil man who commits atrocities, yet still trusts Christ, is not as unrealistic as you claimed it to be.

Ken
And your point is....
Never mind.

K
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
No, my argument is the evil man who commits atrocities, yet still trusts Christ, is not as unrealistic as you claimed it to be.

Ken
And your point is....
Never mind.

K
Kenny,

What does John 3:16 mean to you? Interpret it for us.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: When did I ever say that once someone trusts Christ, they do no wrong? Seriously Kenny? That's your argument?
No, my argument is the evil man who commits atrocities, yet still trusts Christ, is not as unrealistic as you claimed it to be.

Ken
And your point is....
Never mind.

K
Kenny,

What does John 3:16 mean to you? Interpret it for us.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.


Ken
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

Ken wrote:
I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.

Ken
I'm not sure I'm following you Ken. By what standard do you judge someone in the KKK, or anyone else to be evil?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Nessa »

Kenny wrote: These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.

Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.

Ken
Who said they had christian convictions that were true to the christian faith? And what makes it obvious that these people worshiped Jesus and loved and trusted Jesus? How do you know they weren't worshiping, loving and trusting only who they thought was Jesus?
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kurieuo »

Hi Kenny,

I think the penny just dropped for me about your issues with belief in God.
It is seems to me quite similar to HappyFlappyDeist's.

Given that no religion has the correct idea of God, then God is irrelevant.
God may as well not exist. And so it's a what then...
You're issue seems less about whether God exists, and more about so what?

You know, much like you (I'm assuming), I was a Christian my whole life.
Understood the religious language and all that... or so I thought.

Then after I left home, I had a revelation.
It was while reading Romans along side a commentary by Martin Lloyd-Jones.
Christianity made sense for the first time. What it means to be saved. Christ dying on the cross.
You know I'd say things like "Christ died on the cross for my sins" and believed such, but I didn't understand.
Religious language like that I understood, and yet... really didn't grasp.
It is strange to explain.

I can't help but feel, you understood the religious language and all that.
Heard people preaching this and that. But, then, you never had the moment where a fuller realisation was had.
What it all really meant. Why we are saved. Why we need saving. Oh, because we're going to hell otherwise.
That's why we need to be saved "by the blood of Christ", umm, yeah ok.
And we both just went along with all those religious phrases once upon a time.

Maybe it's the difference between a cultural saturation and indoctrination, versus truly understanding.
We breathed the words each and every day, such that we grow up taking them for granted. We understand, and yet don't.
You know, a lot of Judaism appeals to many Christians today, because they see in their religious practices and the like many foreshadows of Christ and God's purpose. It's like Christ completes Judaism. Please don't debate that point. What I'm highlighting is that these Christians knew their faith or so they thought, but it was very perhaps 1-dimensional. Such 1-dimensionalness isn't very deep, but often superficial.

Bah, if it's not coming across what I'm trying to say, I'm not sure how to say it.

What I would encourage you to do, is just read through Romans.
You know, this Christian, or that Christian, will tell you this and that. Seemingly according to their taste.
So why not go to the source? If you have the time and feel it's relevant even to your exchanges and time here.

Romans was the book where I find meaning in all the Christian language, meaning I thought I understood but then realised I just took it all for granted in a very 1-dimensional manner.
Paul really deals with so many issues in Romans. If you want to understand the Christian message, Paul was the person who went to the Gentiles (non-Jews) and spoke about what Christ meant over and over again. He even set Peter (the "first Pope" ;)) straight, and Peter conceded to Paul. :lol: I find that quite amusing. Peter seemed to want to play the religious game, and Paul just took a no-bs approach in taking the foundational message to the people.

Anyway, would it be too hard to have a read through Romans? What could it hurt? It is an interesting book.
But, especially so when it comes to a Christian understanding of their being saved, sinning and the like -- this is all dealt with in Romans.
So if you want a direct understanding. Throw in the bin what some side alley preacher screamed, put on hold what you believe you were taught, forget what we all try to tell you here, and just go direct to the source.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by RickD »

K wrote:

It is seems to me quite similar to HappyFlappyDeist's.
We can only hope!

HFD,

Isn't it about time to share something with us? :wave:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Kenny
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Ken wrote:
I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.

Ken
I'm not sure I'm following you Ken. By what standard do you judge someone in the KKK, or anyone else to be evil?
By my standards, and the standards of modern society in the environment of which I live.

Ken
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