Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
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Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
I've been wondering this for a while now. What, exactly, is "belief" in Christ? Is there an event that we have to believe without questions? Is being a bit skeptical still classed as belief and will it get you saved?
Let's take an example, a questioning agnostic for example who is curious about the life and deeds of Christ. This agnostic believes that a man called Jesus Christ existed, he even believes he died for our sins. However, he is skeptical that he defeated death and was resurrected three days later. Of course, people don't just come back to life three days after dying! Will this agnostic be saved? He recognises that Christ died for our sins but cannot understand and accept he was resurrected.
What about people who believe in Christ as the son of God who died for our sins and was resurrected but sometimes think, "what if he didn't? What if it is all actually a fabrication?" I sometimes find myself in this camp. I don't like to think like this, but believing miraculous events from 2000 years ago sometimes seems a bit surreal. I pray for clarification on this subject.
Let's take an example, a questioning agnostic for example who is curious about the life and deeds of Christ. This agnostic believes that a man called Jesus Christ existed, he even believes he died for our sins. However, he is skeptical that he defeated death and was resurrected three days later. Of course, people don't just come back to life three days after dying! Will this agnostic be saved? He recognises that Christ died for our sins but cannot understand and accept he was resurrected.
What about people who believe in Christ as the son of God who died for our sins and was resurrected but sometimes think, "what if he didn't? What if it is all actually a fabrication?" I sometimes find myself in this camp. I don't like to think like this, but believing miraculous events from 2000 years ago sometimes seems a bit surreal. I pray for clarification on this subject.
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Romans 10:10-13
Many might believe Christ existed and the like, but fewer would believe in Christ.
Some believe rational ascent is enough, others like myself see the heart is required as per v.10 above.
The difference is like merely believing Jesus exists, versus placing your faith in Him as Lord.
As for doubt, doubt shows a healthy skepticism.
Doubt left unchecked can be dangerous, but I think all Christians have doubts here or there.
Take a read of this: http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/deali ... _doubt.htm (note also ch.7)
I don't doubt that you will find it encouraging.
- 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Many might believe Christ existed and the like, but fewer would believe in Christ.
Some believe rational ascent is enough, others like myself see the heart is required as per v.10 above.
The difference is like merely believing Jesus exists, versus placing your faith in Him as Lord.
As for doubt, doubt shows a healthy skepticism.
Doubt left unchecked can be dangerous, but I think all Christians have doubts here or there.
Take a read of this: http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/deali ... _doubt.htm (note also ch.7)
I don't doubt that you will find it encouraging.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
I hope Jac doesn't mind my sharing it, but he wrote a really good article on this subject:
What is Biblical Faith?
What is Biblical Faith?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Jac gets a bit sloppy with words in his last paragraph.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
How so? Here's the last paragraph:Kurieuo wrote:Jac gets a bit sloppy with words in his last paragraph.
The Bible is clear that salvation is by faith alone. Fundamentally, to believe is to trust. To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth (cf. Gen. 15:6 and 1 John 5:10). Don’t let anyone add conditions to the Gospel by loading up all their extra conditions into the word “believe.” Unfortunately, such attempts are just as much false gospels as any that says that we have to do good works before we can be saved. We either trust Jesus alone or we do not.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
To believe in Christ is to believe ( like you believe that you are loved by someone the loves you for example) in ALL that Christ is and has done and will do.
In short, that He lived and preached and died on the cross, that He was resurrected, that He is alive and that He will come again.
If you do NOT believe ALL of that, then you are not believing in the Christ that is saviour of all those that believe in Him.
EX:
If you believe that He lived and died BUT did NOT resurrect, then the Christ you believe in is NOT our saviour.
In short, that He lived and preached and died on the cross, that He was resurrected, that He is alive and that He will come again.
If you do NOT believe ALL of that, then you are not believing in the Christ that is saviour of all those that believe in Him.
EX:
If you believe that He lived and died BUT did NOT resurrect, then the Christ you believe in is NOT our saviour.
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
PaulS is onto it.RickD wrote:How so? Here's the last paragraph:Kurieuo wrote:Jac gets a bit sloppy with words in his last paragraph.The Bible is clear that salvation is by faith alone. Fundamentally, to believe is to trust. To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth (cf. Gen. 15:6 and 1 John 5:10). Don’t let anyone add conditions to the Gospel by loading up all their extra conditions into the word “believe.” Unfortunately, such attempts are just as much false gospels as any that says that we have to do good works before we can be saved. We either trust Jesus alone or we do not.
Jac was reasoning at the start faith and belief is like putting one's faith in someone.
Then, it seems he relaxes his language in the conclusion to just say: "To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth."
Well that's too loose for my liking. And if someone just reads the final paragraph summary, they could get into a bit of strife with their understanding. They might think, well I believe God exists and would speak truth, so now I'm saved. Such has no content.
I can believe God tells the truth but great, what then? Without the object of that truth it is quite meaningless.
It's to trust in Christ if we're going by Jac's logic up until then. Believing in Christ Himself that saves.
In relation to "belief" there seems to be two objects of belief identified in Romans 10:9,11
- 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
That is, for me, an elaborate summary of Romans 10:11 and what it means to believe in Christ with your heart, rather than simply believe a truth proposition. And, if this opens up a can 'o worms I blame you RickD!
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
I tend to think of myself as open to tightening up loose language, but I really am not following your critique here, K. I'm not going to exegete my own article, but if you go back to the beginning, I make a big point about the basic idea as found in aman is to basically say amen to something, to acknowledge that it is true or trustworthy or reliable. When Abraham said aman to God, He was believing that God was telling the truth.
For me, there can be no faith without a testimony to be believed. While this didn't make it into the article, I can assure you on rather good authority that John 3:33 was in the back of my mind as I was writing it. To believe God tells the truth requires we ask, "tell the truth about what"? And, of course, the answer is that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).
Further, just to be pedantic, the article wasn't an attempt to set out and deliniate the gospel. It was on the definition of faith or belief. So to believe, to have faith, is to give assent to the truth of God's testimony. That is to believe God. So just believing that He exists is not believing God told the truth. Nor is believing that He would tell the truth the same thing as believing in God. You rightly point out that there has to be an object, and the object is God's testimony concerning His Son Jesus Christ. That is what it means to believe in or on Jesus. It is nothing less than to believe the Father's testimony regarding Christ. And that, by the way, is why belief in the resurrection is so essential (and so Paul's comments in Romans 10).
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
When you deal with the Greek, you write:
Certainly, if you were to elaborate upon such, it would be to believe more in merely that God speaks truth. More than simply that God is honest. For example, is it God saying he created that we must believe he is speaking the truth on? Or is it just that God is always honest and speaks truth that we must believe? OR, is to believe the Gospel to believe in the truth of Christ and as such in Christ.
Re: Gospel, to believe a proposition as Paul states carries with is the heart ("we believe with our hearts"). So is it possible to even believe Christ rose from the dead without some fuller belief in Christ? We might separate the two "belief in the resurrection" and "belief in Christ" -- they can be understood separate. I think however, belief in Christ necessarily entails belief in the resurrection and this really amounts to one's heart which is what we believe with. This is the correct direction to look at matters, rather than starting with the resurrection which is more the evidence in the object of our belief.
Don't know if that's making any sense. I hope so.
You provide a pre-conclusion:it fundamentally means to declare something reliable, trustworthy, or steadfast. By extension, it means to reply upon or trust something or someone. As such, pisteuo can bear the idea of “entrusting.” Because a person or thing is reliable, I can entrust something of value to them. John plays on this idea in John 2:23-25, “Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed [pisteuo] in his name. But Jesus would not entrust [pisteuo] himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man” (NIV).
I agree with everything above. The following text however in bold, I feel doesn't do your words up until then justice:In short, “to believe,” in both Greek and Hebrew, simply means to place your trust in something or to rely upon it. There is no distinction between real and false faith. It does not include concepts such as repentance and baptism. When the Bible wishes to speak of repentance, it says so (Mark 1:15). When it wishes to speak of baptism, it says so (Acts 8:12).
The Bible is clear that salvation is by faith alone. Fundamentally, to believe is to trust. To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth.
___________________
True. Let me say I obviously embrace your definitions of faith and belief, I just don't feel that part in bold re: the Gospel has Paul's fuller exposition in Romans 10. I simply feel the object of the Gospel is somewhat missed (or perhaps really abbreviated) in that last paragraph. But, I'm being pedantic -- that isn't your purpose to fully define the object of belief which would be an article or more in itself.Jac wrote:Further, just to be pedantic, the article wasn't an attempt to set out and deliniate the gospel. It was on the definition of faith or belief.
Certainly, if you were to elaborate upon such, it would be to believe more in merely that God speaks truth. More than simply that God is honest. For example, is it God saying he created that we must believe he is speaking the truth on? Or is it just that God is always honest and speaks truth that we must believe? OR, is to believe the Gospel to believe in the truth of Christ and as such in Christ.
Re: Gospel, to believe a proposition as Paul states carries with is the heart ("we believe with our hearts"). So is it possible to even believe Christ rose from the dead without some fuller belief in Christ? We might separate the two "belief in the resurrection" and "belief in Christ" -- they can be understood separate. I think however, belief in Christ necessarily entails belief in the resurrection and this really amounts to one's heart which is what we believe with. This is the correct direction to look at matters, rather than starting with the resurrection which is more the evidence in the object of our belief.
Don't know if that's making any sense. I hope so.
Last edited by Kurieuo on Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
I really need to go to bed now!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Yes, you just open the can and run. Got a grenade to throw in now?RickD wrote:
I really need to go to bed now!
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Nu uh! If you noticed, the open can is in Jac's post.Kurieuo wrote:Yes, you just open the can and run. Got a grenade to throw in now?RickD wrote:
I really need to go to bed now!
I still don't see an issue with what Jac said.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- Kurieuo
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Consider this, and as I said, it's a pedantic point.
Do Muslims believe God tells them the truth?
Let me answer "Yes" for them.
What the object of that truth looks like doesn't matter.
They "trust that God is telling the truth."
Therefore, Muslims believe in the Gospel, according to Jac's words.
I know that isn't what Jac is saying.
And his post wasn't about describing what the object of truth is that is the Gospel (i.e., "belief in Christ" or "belief in Christ's resurrection").
Just after articulating so carefully everything else, there is a bit of relaxing his words.
Can I go dance with angels on the tip of some pins now?
Do Muslims believe God tells them the truth?
Let me answer "Yes" for them.
What the object of that truth looks like doesn't matter.
They "trust that God is telling the truth."
Therefore, Muslims believe in the Gospel, according to Jac's words.
I know that isn't what Jac is saying.
And his post wasn't about describing what the object of truth is that is the Gospel (i.e., "belief in Christ" or "belief in Christ's resurrection").
Just after articulating so carefully everything else, there is a bit of relaxing his words.
Can I go dance with angels on the tip of some pins now?
Last edited by Kurieuo on Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
But Jac said:Kurieuo wrote:Consider this, and as I said, it's a pedantic point.
Do Muslims believe God tells them the truth?
Let me answer "Yes" for them.
What the object of that truth looks like doesn't matter.
They "trust that God is telling the truth."
Therefore, Muslims believe in the Gospel, according to Jac's words.
I know that isn't what Jac is saying.
And his post wasn't about describing what the object of truth is that is the Gospel (i.e., "belief in Christ" or "belief in Christ's resurrection").
Just after articulating so carefully everything else, there is a bit of relaxing his words.
Can I go dance with angels on the tip of some pins now?
The truth regarding the gospel.To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Belief in Christ saves us - what exactly is "belief?"
Adding "regarding the gospel" would be a way to be more specific, but a little tautologous.RickD wrote:But Jac said:Kurieuo wrote:Consider this, and as I said, it's a pedantic point.
Do Muslims believe God tells them the truth?
Let me answer "Yes" for them.
What the object of that truth looks like doesn't matter.
They "trust that God is telling the truth."
Therefore, Muslims believe in the Gospel, according to Jac's words.
I know that isn't what Jac is saying.
And his post wasn't about describing what the object of truth is that is the Gospel (i.e., "belief in Christ" or "belief in Christ's resurrection").
Just after articulating so carefully everything else, there is a bit of relaxing his words.
Can I go dance with angels on the tip of some pins now?The truth regarding the gospel.To believe the Gospel is to trust that God is telling the truth.
There is an underlining insinuation I know Jac is making re: what the belief is.
Only because he's discussed this on numerous occasions.
To be clear, I know Jac doesn't necessarily like my identification of belief with the heart.
He'd prefer intellectual assent to a proposition like, "Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?"
I understand Jac's concern, and I'm sure Jac can see my own points and concerns.
So I earlier tried to present an acceptable solution we both might be content with:
Maybe I'm reading too much into -- anticipating Jac's thinking too much behind his words.Re: Gospel, to believe a proposition as Paul states carries with it the heart ("we believe with our hearts"). So is it possible to even believe Christ rose from the dead without some fuller belief in Christ? We might separate the two "belief in the resurrection" and "belief in Christ" -- they can be understood separate. I think however, belief in Christ necessarily entails belief in the resurrection and this really amounts to one's heart which is what we believe with. This is the correct direction to look at matters, rather than starting with the resurrection which is more the evidence in the object of our belief.
I'm sure he'll let us know here soon enough.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)