PC and the fall

[abelcainsbrother]

God did not say they would die immediately,he just said they would die and they did die like God said.

[PaulSacramento]

God did not say they would die immediately,he just said they would die and they did die like God said.

According to Genesis, God said that on the Day Adam would eat, he would die:

17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

It is not implied, it is stated explicitly.

What we have to address is the very real biblical fact that Adam and Eve did NOT die and the reason they were banished was so that they WOULD eventually die:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

[RickD]

Two things got me to think, and eventually stop believing in YEC. Then I came to this site.

The first thing was when I was listening to the Dennis Prager radio show, and he had a Jewish Rabbi on his show. The Rabbi was talking about "yom", and how it has more than one meaning in ancient Hebrew.

And the second thing was after reading Romans 5:12:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

After hearing the rabbi talk about yom, then I read Romans 5:12, and it was like a light turned on inside my head. One man sinned, and death spread to all men.

Hey, wait a minute! Ken Ham has been telling me that Adam's sin brought death to man and animals. But animals don't sin nor need redemption from sin. So why would Adam's sin cause animal death, when Romans 5:12 says sin brought death to all men?

Very good point. But wouldn't there have ended up being something of an overpopulation of people in the world if no one ever died?

Adam and Eve had access to the tree of life, which allowed them to live physically forever. There's no reason scripturally or otherwise, to think that all people would've lived forever physically if Adam didn't sin.

[PaulSacramento]

An interesting view:
Some have read the "tree of life" passage as an analogy or metaphor for Christ, who is the "bread and water of Life".

[abelcainsbrother]

God did not say they would die immediately,he just said they would die and they did die like God said.

According to Genesis, God said that on the Day Adam would eat, he would die:

17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

It is not implied, it is stated explicitly.

What we have to address is the very real biblical fact that Adam and Eve did NOT die and the reason they were banished was so that they WOULD eventually die:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

I know what it says but I don't know why you read it the way you do.I think you are reading immediately into it but I've never thought that way when I read it,maybe it is because Adam lived 930 years after he ate of it,but one thing it does is let us know God does not lie.Also since God said he would die if he ate then it does seem to mean he would not have died had he not ate,however he could have not ate it then,but later.

I do think death before Adam is a good question to ask but what happened in the former world had no bearing on this world because the former world completely perished until God made this world.I believe the evidence in the earth confirms this but because of evolution has been overlooked. The evidence shows massive death and extinction of both plant and animal life but we must remove evolution from the examination of what the evidence tells us.Evolution clouds the view and obscures what the evidence tells us.

Try this examine the fossils from the perspective of a former world and remove evolution from your mind and you start to see the kinds of life both plant and animal life that lived in the former world,then you can compare them to the life we have in this world.It gives a totally different perspective than an evolution one.

[Nicki]

God did not say they would die immediately,he just said they would die and they did die like God said.

According to Genesis, God said that on the Day Adam would eat, he would die:

17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

It is not implied, it is stated explicitly.

What we have to address is the very real biblical fact that Adam and Eve did NOT die and the reason they were banished was so that they WOULD eventually die:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

The NIV says 'when you eat of it you will surely die'. Another uncertainty about the word for 'day' I suppose. However, the idea that they immediately died spiritually fits a lot better with my original understanding of this issue.

[Nicki]

Two things got me to think, and eventually stop believing in YEC. Then I came to this site.

The first thing was when I was listening to the Dennis Prager radio show, and he had a Jewish Rabbi on his show. The Rabbi was talking about "yom", and how it has more than one meaning in ancient Hebrew.

And the second thing was after reading Romans 5:12:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

After hearing the rabbi talk about yom, then I read Romans 5:12, and it was like a light turned on inside my head. One man sinned, and death spread to all men.

Hey, wait a minute! Ken Ham has been telling me that Adam's sin brought death to man and animals. But animals don't sin nor need redemption from sin. So why would Adam's sin cause animal death, when Romans 5:12 says sin brought death to all men?

Very good point. But wouldn't there have ended up being something of an overpopulation of people in the world if no one ever died?

Adam and Eve had access to the tree of life, which allowed them to live physically forever. There's no reason scripturally or otherwise, to think that all people would've lived forever physically if Adam didn't sin.

Ah, ok - my assumption was that if no one had the tendency to sin which Adam and Eve brought in, they could have kept on being perfect and living forever. Another reason why I found the whole idea hard to believe.

[Kurieuo]

Two things got me to think, and eventually stop believing in YEC. Then I came to this site.

The first thing was when I was listening to the Dennis Prager radio show, and he had a Jewish Rabbi on his show. The Rabbi was talking about "yom", and how it has more than one meaning in ancient Hebrew.

And the second thing was after reading Romans 5:12:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

After hearing the rabbi talk about yom, then I read Romans 5:12, and it was like a light turned on inside my head. One man sinned, and death spread to all men.

Hey, wait a minute! Ken Ham has been telling me that Adam's sin brought death to man and animals. But animals don't sin nor need redemption from sin. So why would Adam's sin cause animal death, when Romans 5:12 says sin brought death to all men?

Very good point. But wouldn't there have ended up being something of an overpopulation of people in the world if no one ever died?

Adam and Eve had access to the tree of life, which allowed them to live physically forever. There's no reason scripturally or otherwise, to think that all people would've lived forever physically if Adam didn't sin.

Ah, ok - my assumption was that if no one had the tendency to sin which Adam and Eve brought in, they could have kept on being perfect and living forever. Another reason why I found the whole idea hard to believe.

Ephesians 1:3-8

• 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.

Some things to note here.
God knew we would sin before creation existed.
God already had a plan to counter such, because He loved us and saw that it could be overcome in Christ.
Therefore, it seems our sin really isn't an issue for God provided we have taken the cure (Christ) to our spiritual death.

I note this, because some ask what if Adam and Eve never sinned?
Well, if they never would have sinned, then the world God created would be very different I'm sure.

This is something I dislike about YEC. And it's more a theological gripe.
It makes God out to be stupid. Like God didn't see the fall coming and was weak to prevent it.
He didn't anticipate Adam and Eve sinning -- the world was meant to be a perfect paradise.
And the run on thought from this, is that God therefore wouldn't have created our world to run down and expire.
Well, perhaps God knowing about the fall, and the true purpose of this world, is precisely why God made life temporary along with the whole universe. BUT, in the end, every tear will be wiped from our eyes and there will be no more pain or suffering in the Kingdom. ( Revelation 21:4)
This world is therefore like a testing ground, a step into the next one.

God's creation was not meant to be perfect. God can equally work with imperfection, and thank Christ that He does.
Through the imperfection, I strongly believe who we are and our characters can develop.
If we were created perfect, well what room is there for us to shape who we are?
God doesn't want robots. He wants the real us, warts and all.
And that -- that's true love!

[abelcainsbrother]

God did not say they would die immediately,he just said they would die and they did die like God said.

According to Genesis, God said that on the Day Adam would eat, he would die:

17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

It is not implied, it is stated explicitly.

What we have to address is the very real biblical fact that Adam and Eve did NOT die and the reason they were banished was so that they WOULD eventually die:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

The NIV says 'when you eat of it you will surely die'. Another uncertainty about the word for 'day' I suppose. However, the idea that they immediately died spiritually fits a lot better with my original understanding of this issue.

Yeah,we could also say they started dying physically when they ate.

[PaulSacramento]

RE the Genesis passage I quoted and responses:

My point is that quit obviously we have an explicit statement from the writer of Genesis that implies death at the moment of transgression BUT means either a spiritual death or the beginning of mortal death.
Point being that IF we can take and explicit passage as the Genesis one and understand it to have a different meaning than it seems to have, then we can also understand that Paul's may also not have meant what it seems to mean.