Theist VS atheist

[abelcainsbrother]

ALL things have a cause and all things that are caused are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence

I noticed you enunciated the word "all". Does this means this applies to God as well?

and ask them can they name anything in our world that does not apply to these facts

What about outside our world?

K

No,it does not apply to God.I know you don't believe the bible but we do not believe in a created God liked some do our God is eternal and this is even more reason to believe in him because he can create universes easy and yet you are still using your imagination to deny the facts of the reality around you

So I am denying the "facts of reality"? What facts do you have that support your claims?

Name something in this world that does not apply to the facts.

When you say “in this world” are you referring only to plant Earth? Or am I expected to assume you meant something different (like the entire Universe) and respond to that?

Ken

The entire cosmos is apart of our world.Let's see cups,plates,doors,hope,faith,love,fear,hurricanes,tornadoes,the sun,moon,stars,tsunamis,evolution,cans,windows,atoms,cells,buildings,houses,children,life,death,pain,pleasure,dogs,cats,horses,etc Everything. ALL things have a cause and all things that are caused are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence.And just because you choose to overlook these facts and the requirements for these facts does not mean you should use your imagination to believe things that defy logic,reason and reality,you must have God for these to be facts.

Fair enough; I will assume you mean the entire Universe when you say "world". The problem with claims like these about the entire Universe, is we don't know enough about the contents of the Universe to make such a claim, and you can't assume the laws of nature that applies to the 4% of the Universe we know of, is consistent with the 96% of the Universe that we are unfamiliar with.
Now if you as a Christian believe God did it; that's fine, but you shouldn't be surprised if those who don't believe in your God have different views, unless you have some facts to back up your claims. Now you have been consistent in saying you have facts, and I keep asking for them. Unless you can provide some facts, your claims will not be taken seriously.


Ken

You are still using your imagination to defy the facts and evidence I already gave.You ignore the evidence I give that are facts,and rely on the fact nobody can make you change your mind because you dismiss the facts and evidence in order to rely on your imagination.Why should I give more evidence when you will just dismiss it? I don't know = imagination and this is why you won't take it seriously.

At least I have the facts of logic,reason and reality and it is easier to believe God created because he can create easily and cause all the things you claim we don't know abouthat you do,when you dismiss evidence sand say " We don't know" You do know the facts I brought up,but you just dismiss the facts and evidence of logic,reason and reality.

There is no reason to play the prove it and dismiss it game when you don't know and have nothing to go on except your imagination.

[RickD]

Ken wrote:

When you say “in this world” are you referring only to plant Earth? Or am I expected to assume you meant something different (like the entire Universe) and respond to that?

Ken

Ken,

I think he's referring to animal earth as well as plant earth. But what do plants have to do with anything?

Okay; you got me on that one. Good catch my friend!

Ken

See what happens when we respond to what is said, not what is meant? I think you see it. C'mon, admit it you see it.

[Kenny]

You are still using your imagination to defy the facts and evidence I already gave.You ignore the evidence I give that are facts,and rely on the fact nobody can make you change your mind because you dismiss the facts and evidence in order to rely on your imagination.Why should I give more evidence when you will just dismiss it?

You haven't given any facts yet. If you did give the date and time when you did.

Ken

[Kenny]

Ken wrote:

When you say “in this world” are you referring only to plant Earth? Or am I expected to assume you meant something different (like the entire Universe) and respond to that?

Ken

Ken,

I think he's referring to animal earth as well as plant earth. But what do plants have to do with anything?

Okay; you got me on that one. Good catch my friend!

Ken

See what happens when we respond to what is said, not what is meant? I think you see it. C'mon, admit it you see it.

As I said before, I didn't want to make the same mistake twice, and I did respond to what he meant. Thus far he nor anybody else responded to it.

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Kenny this is evidence you asked for.

The entire cosmos is apart of our world.Let's see cups,plates,doors,hope,faith,love,fear,hurricanes,tornadoes,the sun,moon,stars,tsunamis,evolution,cans,windows,atoms,cells,buildings,houses,children,life,death,pain,pleasure,dogs,cats,horses,etc Everything. ALL things have a cause and all things that are caused are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence.And just because you choose to overlook these facts and the requirements for these facts does not mean you should use your imagination to believe things that defy logic,reason and reality,you must have God for these to be facts.

I gave you evidence and facts.If you really do not care about evidence you should not ask.Because it is rare I don't have evidence for what I believe and this is evidence you dismissed because you say w don't know when nothingI said is wrong.You are choosing to take the long way around because you ignore the reality around you which is all we can go on to know the truth at this point,but you ignore these facts of reality and cannot name anything that goes against these fscts.,which you cannot do,because they are facts.

Then you think you can ignore the bible about an all-powerful,eternal God that can create universes easy,but you ignore who this God is and think you are smart by forcing this God into a created God which he is not,and your bringing God up is just ignorance of who this God is and what he can do.

But it is worse because the facts and evidence make God a must and God is the very reason these are facts of reality that you are ignoring.
You have not addressed my point at all because you have no reason based on reality to deny the evidence I gave.I don't know or we don,'t know is a lie based on reality,logic and reason.

Your are trying to do what atheists do make the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics apply to God even though the laws of physics did not come into being until the big bang,but they try to make them around before the big bang.They could not have applied to God,only the universe and they effect it.

[Kenny]

Kenny this is evidence you asked for.

The entire cosmos is apart of our world.Let's see cups,plates,doors,hope,faith,love,fear,hurricanes,tornadoes,the sun,moon,stars,tsunamis,evolution,cans,windows,atoms,cells,buildings,houses,children,life,death,pain,pleasure,dogs,cats,horses,etc Everything. ALL things have a cause

Okay first of all those are not facts; those are claims.
Second, you did it again; you said “all things have a cause” you didn’t make an exception for your answer. I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and assumed all things except your explanation.

and all things that are caused are caused by something else

Well at least you worded it correctly! Gotta give you a couple of points for that compared to the rest of what you’ve been known to write.

and all things are willed into existence.

C’mon bro you’re doing it again! And you were doing good for a little while there; If all things are willed into existence, that includes YOUR explanation as well! I’m gonna have to assume you meant everything EXCEPT your explanation.
Now I’ve already addressed this claim; if you gonna make an exception for your explanation; you gonna have to make an exception to mine as well otherwise you are special pleading.

I gave you evidence and facts.If you really do not care about evidence you should not ask.Because it is rare I don't have evidence for what I believe and this is evidence you dismissed because you say w don't know when nothingI said is wrong.You are choosing to take the long way around because you ignore the reality around you which is all we can go on to know the truth at this point,but you ignore these facts of reality and cannot name anything that goes against these fscts.,which you cannot do,because they are facts.

Again you keep claiming facts but refuse to provide any. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word “fact” and you will see you’ve presented none. You make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, but nothing that could remotely be referred to as fact

Ken

[EssentialSacrifice]

Although it will make no difference in this conversation.. cause should be defined thusly...

all thing that are found in creation have a cause.
God is not found in creation
thereby, God alone is the uncaused cause, because, He instituted creation from outside of His creation for which no cause can be attributed...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... ticle=1601

God, not being a physical, finite being, but an eternal, spiritual being (by definition), would not be subject to the condition of requiring a beginning. Therefore, the law does not apply to Him. Concerning the Law of Causality, renowned German philosopher, Immanuel Kant, said that “everything which is contingent has a cause, which, if itself contingent, must also have a cause; and so on, till the series of subordinated causes must end with an absolutely necessary cause, without which it would not possess completeness” (Kant, 2008, p. 284, emp. added). An uncaused Cause is necessary. Only God sufficiently fills that void.... [from article above]

sorta like the Big Bang being the beginning because the universe is found to be expanding. You can go back as far as you can, to the very instant of beginning, until there has to be something that caused it, something that is uncaused itself because, within creation, at the very first, there was nothing there to cause it.

[Kenny]

Although it will make no difference in this conversation.. cause should be defined thusly...

all thing that are found in creation have a cause.
God is not found in creation
thereby, God alone is the uncaused cause, because, He instituted creation from outside of His creation for which no cause can be attributed...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... ticle=1601

God, not being a physical, finite being, but an eternal, spiritual being (by definition), would not be subject to the condition of requiring a beginning. Therefore, the law does not apply to Him. Concerning the Law of Causality, renowned German philosopher, Immanuel Kant, said that “everything which is contingent has a cause, which, if itself contingent, must also have a cause; and so on, till the series of subordinated causes must end with an absolutely necessary cause, without which it would not possess completeness” (Kant, 2008, p. 284, emp. added). An uncaused Cause is necessary. Only God sufficiently fills that void.... [from article above]

sorta like the Big Bang being the beginning because the universe is found to be expanding. You can go back as far as you can, to the very instant of beginning, until there has to be something that caused it, something that is uncaused itself because, within creation, at the very first, there was nothing there to cause it.

Interesting POV but you're right, it doesn't make a difference in the conversation; it doesn't address the issue at hand.

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Kenny this is evidence you asked for.

The entire cosmos is apart of our world.Let's see cups,plates,doors,hope,faith,love,fear,hurricanes,tornadoes,the sun,moon,stars,tsunamis,evolution,cans,windows,atoms,cells,buildings,houses,children,life,death,pain,pleasure,dogs,cats,horses,etc Everything. ALL things have a cause

Okay first of all those are not facts; those are claims.
Second, you did it again; you said “all things have a cause” you didn’t make an exception for your answer. I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and assumed all things except your explanation.

and all things that are caused are caused by something else

Well at least you worded it correctly! Gotta give you a couple of points for that compared to the rest of what you’ve been known to write.

and all things are willed into existence.

C’mon bro you’re doing it again! And you were doing good for a little while there; If all things are willed into existence, that includes YOUR explanation as well! I’m gonna have to assume you meant everything EXCEPT your explanation.
Now I’ve already addressed this claim; if you gonna make an exception for your explanation; you gonna have to make an exception to mine as well otherwise you are special pleading.

I gave you evidence and facts.If you really do not care about evidence you should not ask.Because it is rare I don't have evidence for what I believe and this is evidence you dismissed because you say w don't know when nothingI said is wrong.You are choosing to take the long way around because you ignore the reality around you which is all we can go on to know the truth at this point,but you ignore these facts of reality and cannot name anything that goes against these fscts.,which you cannot do,because they are facts.

Again you keep claiming facts but refuse to provide any. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word “fact” and you will see you’ve presented none. You make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, but nothing that could remotely be referred to as fact

Ken

You should explain why my evidence is wrong.You are just denying it while ignoring reality and it seems your in denial of it.I am serious and do not and am not going to change anything because St Thomas Aquinas has never been refuted by any atheist and he was direcly confronting materialism/naturalism then in the 13thcentury and yet today he is still just as right as back then despite all of the rhetoric we have heard about materialism/materialism science has been ignoring philosophy for along time and you'll hear atheist scientists often dismiss philosophy but they do it to their own dissappointment because these facts of logic,reason and reality donot change and this is why even today youmust say we don't know yet,like you are doing,which has been going on since Cain and Abel.

There have alwaysbeen sceptics and even atheists,it is nothing new.But nothing has ever changed as most people by a vast majority believe in God still today.

It is a fact that All things have a cause and all things that are caused are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence and this is true because of God.This is how nothing I said was wrong.I could feel up the whole page with examples and all would apply to these facts based on logic,reason and reality.

Alot of people mostly atheists think infinite regression can be broken because they listen to scientific theories that were built by using imagination that ignores philosophy and the facts of logic,reason and reality. You see if you make the facts apply to God like you try to do then there would be no universe or world and these would not be facts,but they are because God is the cause that started it all off so that these facts remain,but if you remove God you have nothing except imagination just as in the time of St Thomas Aquinas and I narrowed it down to just 3 bullet points too but there are more facts in his philosophy.

You might continue to hold out hope that things will change but nothing has changed and even science built by ignoring philosophy and looking at everything from an naturalistic/materialistic view-point ruling out God still points to God and always will because no matter what scientific theory science comes up with ALL things have a cause and ALL things that have a cause are caused by something else and all things are willed into existence and science will not change it,because God exists and got everything started and if you disagree still,you still have nothing you can point to in order to have a cause and yet you should know that if God is real like the bible says he can create and cause universes easy and so it is easy to believe i9nstead of you somehowimagining infinite regression can be broken and the facts of reality are a delusion.

[Kenny]

Kenny this is evidence you asked for.

The entire cosmos is apart of our world.Let's see cups,plates,doors,hope,faith,love,fear,hurricanes,tornadoes,the sun,moon,stars,tsunamis,evolution,cans,windows,atoms,cells,buildings,houses,children,life,death,pain,pleasure,dogs,cats,horses,etc Everything. ALL things have a cause

Okay first of all those are not facts; those are claims.
Second, you did it again; you said “all things have a cause” you didn’t make an exception for your answer. I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and assumed all things except your explanation.

and all things that are caused are caused by something else

Well at least you worded it correctly! Gotta give you a couple of points for that compared to the rest of what you’ve been known to write.

and all things are willed into existence.

C’mon bro you’re doing it again! And you were doing good for a little while there; If all things are willed into existence, that includes YOUR explanation as well! I’m gonna have to assume you meant everything EXCEPT your explanation.
Now I’ve already addressed this claim; if you gonna make an exception for your explanation; you gonna have to make an exception to mine as well otherwise you are special pleading.

I gave you evidence and facts.If you really do not care about evidence you should not ask.Because it is rare I don't have evidence for what I believe and this is evidence you dismissed because you say w don't know when nothingI said is wrong.You are choosing to take the long way around because you ignore the reality around you which is all we can go on to know the truth at this point,but you ignore these facts of reality and cannot name anything that goes against these fscts.,which you cannot do,because they are facts.

Again you keep claiming facts but refuse to provide any. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word “fact” and you will see you’ve presented none. You make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, but nothing that could remotely be referred to as fact

Ken

You should explain why my evidence is wrong.You are just denying it while ignoring reality and it seems your in denial of it.

Okay. When you say “all things have a cause” by definition that is a claim not evidence. In order for it to be evidence or a fact you have to show why all things have a cause. In order to accomplish this you must become knowledgeable of all things to the extent of how they came about and demonstrate why all things have a cause. This is something even the most informed and studied in science is unaware of. It is estimated that of all things that exist in the Universe, mankind only knows of approx. 4%. The other 96% we have no clue about. For you to make claims about 100% of all that exists is not going to be taken seriously, and it most definitely is not seen as evidence or fact.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

Ok then, well, here is a scientific statement based on what science is ( observation):
All things that come into existence, have a cause.
Or if you prefer, in scientific terms:
All things that we observe in this universe that come into existence, have a cause.

[Kenny]

Ok then, well, here is a scientific statement based on what science is ( observation):
All things that come into existence, have a cause.
Or if you prefer, in scientific terms:
All things that we observe in this universe that come into existence, have a cause.

Yeah, but we're not just talking about the stuff that came into existence, we're talking about all things that exist.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

Ok then, well, here is a scientific statement based on what science is ( observation):
All things that come into existence, have a cause.
Or if you prefer, in scientific terms:
All things that we observe in this universe that come into existence, have a cause.

Yeah, but we're not just talking about the stuff that came into existence, we're talking about all things that exist.

Ken

Yes, but that statement is a generalized statement and, as has been pointed out on this thread already, an incorrect one.
BUT it is only incorrect because it can't be proven in absolute.
In reality however and based on science ( what is observable) it is correct.
ALL that science CAN OBSERVE is made up of things that have a cause, in short all things in the material universe have a cause.

Science can NOT make a statement, at least not a verifiable one, about what can't be observed. At best it can theorize or hypothesize and at worse "make things up" ( see the multi-universe hypothesis).

In short, we can't say that "all things have a cause" without a quantifier about WHAT we are talking about.

It is correct to say that all things that come into being, have a cause.
It is even correct to say that, based on what we can observe in the observable universe, all things ( material) in THIS universe have a cause.

[PaulSacramento]

Or, in short:
Show me on thing in this universe that does not have a cause?

[Kenny]

Ok then, well, here is a scientific statement based on what science is ( observation):
All things that come into existence, have a cause.
Or if you prefer, in scientific terms:
All things that we observe in this universe that come into existence, have a cause.

Yeah, but we're not just talking about the stuff that came into existence, we're talking about all things that exist.

Ken

Yes, but that statement is a generalized statement and, as has been pointed out on this thread already, an incorrect one.

How was this statement pointed out as incorrect?

BUT it is only incorrect because it can't be proven in absolute.
In reality however and based on science ( what is observable) it is correct.

Well that's what I've been talking about Sherlock; reality, and based on science! What else did you think I was talking about? Faith???

ALL that science CAN OBSERVE is made up of things that have a cause, in short all things in the material universe have a cause.

Even all the things science cannot observe? How do you know this? Faith???

Science can NOT make a statement, at least not a verifiable one, about what can't be observed.

[/quote]
I agree! But that hasn't stopped ACB from making such statements!


Ken