Catholicism and good works

[patrick]

I am curious, both from Catholics and nonCatholics, what the attitudes regarding good works is. (I didn't see a thread with these words in the title, so excuse me if this has been discussed elsewhere.) I have limited knowledge about differences among denominations so far, but it sounds like this is one of the biggest points of contention amongst Catholicism and nonCatholicism. At the moment, if I were to accept Christianity I believe I would be Catholic, so this is personally relevant and not just idle questioning. The following passage is one that made a lot of sense to me and seemed a good starting point for the discussion:

As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.

James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1). "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell."

Do non-Catholics disagree with this line of thought, or is there perhaps another issue here I am unaware of?

[1over137]

You may check the link on Faith and Works in our FAQs

[PaulSacramento]

Good works is a by product of faith, not done with any ulterior motive other than love.

[1over137]

My personal view remains from that FAQ link: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 30#p164731

John 14:26 ESV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I believe once we start to believe we are given The Helper who teaches us. But that does not mean we will exhibit holy qualities immediately. Only God knows about the changes in our hearts. For others it may look like nothing happened. Or maybe it just will take many many years if not whole life for the person to transform slowly.

[abelcainsbrother]

As you know Catholics and Protestants disagree,most Protestants believe we are saved by grace because of what Jesus did and there is nothing man can do to save himself except believe in Jesus and be saved.Yet Catholics say it is both grace and works imo according to scripture like Ephesians 2:8.I disagree with Catholic doctrine based on what the bible teaches about grace and how if we could save ourself by works then God would not have had to come to save us.

Jesus fulfilled the law for us something noman could door has done and he took the punishment for our sin on himself.Jesus paid forour salvation in full.I think the problemis alot of times people think they are saved when they are'nt because if you have truly been saved by Jesus works will follow automatically and it is not for our salvation but is the holy spirit working in us guiding us to do good works.There is a big difference in works to be saved and works because you are saved/born again to serve God.

People who rely on works often quote James out of context with the rest of what the book of James and the rest of the new testament says and I think make the bible contradict itself in order to hold on to works for justification now I cannot decide what denomination you decide is best for you,but for me it is a church that is not perfect but is as close to the book of Acts as you can get.

[EssentialSacrifice]

acb:
As you know Catholics and Protestants disagree,most Protestants believe we are saved by grace because of what Jesus did and there is nothing man can do to save himself except believe in Jesus and be saved.Yet Catholics say it is both grace and works imo according to scripture like Ephesians 2:8.I disagree with Catholic doctrine based on what the bible teaches about grace and how if we could save ourself by works then God would not have had to come to save us.

You really should take the time to research your subject material before putting it in writing ... this is so misinformed, misleading and doctrinally deficient

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -salvation

so easy to google... try it next time. it worked for plouiswork.

[patrick]

You may check the link on Faith and Works in our FAQs

Thank you for this. It is a very good read.

To answer my own question then, it seems to be a difference in philosophy of what happens when the HS is within one (by truly having faith). Or in other words "what do we make of someone who appears to have done no good works? When I myself have no good works to show for my faith?" I would be of the opinion that I can have no way of knowing for others, but if I did not see changes within me for myself I'd be concerned that I was following the wrong path in one way or another.

From my current understanding of Christianity, it seems correct to interpret the Bible as saying that, since there is no way for us to be righteous enough to deserve salvation, the only thing that matters is our willingness to put faith in God's grace. But what does that mean to truly have faith? Even in that one necessary act, to not delve deeply into faith is to risk falling into a false faith, defeating the purpose of one's conversion. Thus, that one feels content with doing no good or even having done no good should be a red flag, for themselves. But it should not be taken as a measure of one's being a "true Christian."

That said, it seems that people who choose to be Catholic are asking for a culture which *does* hold them externally accountable. Even if one does not agree that good works are, per se, necessary, the Catholic way puts additional emphasis on this aspect of the Christian life.

[abelcainsbrother]

acb:
As you know Catholics and Protestants disagree,most Protestants believe we are saved by grace because of what Jesus did and there is nothing man can do to save himself except believe in Jesus and be saved.Yet Catholics say it is both grace and works imo according to scripture like Ephesians 2:8.I disagree with Catholic doctrine based on what the bible teaches about grace and how if we could save ourself by works then God would not have had to come to save us.

You really should take the time to research your subject material before putting it in writing ... this is so misinformed, misleading and doctrinally deficient

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -salvation

so easy to google... try it next time. it worked for plouiswork.

ES read it for yourself because they deny Catholics teach grace and works but then give scripture to back up works.I'm not trying to get in a Protestant vs Catholic battle but me telling the truth about Catholic doctrine is not slander.I did not just make up stuff about Catholics and I disagree with the question asked in the link you posted because i do not believe Catholics teach a person is saved by works,I said that Catholic doctrine combines grace and works for justification and I was right while Protestants rely more on Grace and what Jesus did for us for justification.I don't see how you can disagree or think I'm lying and be offended by telling the truth.

[1over137]

You may check the link on Faith and Works in our FAQs

Thank you for this. It is a very good read.

To answer my own question then, it seems to be a difference in philosophy of what happens when the HS is within one (by truly having faith). Or in other words "what do we make of someone who appears to have done no good works? When I myself have no good works to show for my faith?" I would be of the opinion that I can have no way of knowing for others, but if I did not see changes within me for myself I'd be concerned that I was following the wrong path in one way or another.

From my current understanding of Christianity, it seems correct to interpret the Bible as saying that, since there is no way for us to be righteous enough to deserve salvation, the only thing that matters is our willingness to put faith in God's grace. But what does that mean to truly have faith? Even in that one necessary act, to not delve deeply into faith is to risk falling into a false faith, defeating the purpose of one's conversion. Thus, that one feels content with doing no good or even having done no good should be a red flag, for themselves. But it should not be taken as a measure of one's being a "true Christian."

That said, it seems that people who choose to be Catholic are asking for a culture which *does* hold them externally accountable. Even if one does not agree that good works are, per se, necessary, the Catholic way puts additional emphasis on this aspect of the Christian life.

I think I can agree with what you wrote.

ES?

[theophilus]

This summarizes the relationship between faith and works:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

Salvation comes by faith along, not works, but a person who is saved will have the desire and ability to serve God so his salvation will produce works. If someone professes to become a Christian and there is no change in the way he lives there is reason to doubt that his profession is real.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:18 ESV)

Works are a sign that a person has faith and therefore is already saved, not the means of acquiring salvation. When Paul said we are justified by faith he was referring to being justified in God's sight. When James says we are justified by our works he was referring to being justified in the sight of other people. God sees our hearts and knows whether or not we have faith. Other people can't see our faith directly so we must demonstrate our faith by the way we live.

This might throw some light on the subject:

https://mennoknight.wordpress.com/2015/ ... the-goats/

[EssentialSacrifice]

acb:
ES read it for yourself because they deny Catholics teach grace and works but then give scripture to back up works.I'm not trying to get in a Protestant vs Catholic battle but me telling the truth about Catholic doctrine is not slander.I did not just make up stuff about Catholics and I disagree with the question asked in the link you posted because i do not believe Catholics teach a person is saved by works,I said that Catholic doctrine combines grace and works for justification and I was right while Protestants rely more on Grace and what Jesus did for us for justification.I don't see how you can disagree or think I'm lying and be offended by telling the truth.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -salvation
does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation?
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved. The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. 

(this is so misinformed)

but me telling the truth about Catholic doctrine is not slander

… so you'd agree that if you weren't telling the truth about the Catholic church it would be slander ?

(this is so misleading)

I said that Catholic doctrine combines grace and works for justification and I was right

… no, acb, you are wrong. There is no combination of grace and works for Catholic justification, in fact, here's the actual view of justification from Catholic sources … it's all about God and His graces, not man's works. see here:

https://carm.org/roman-catholic-view-justification
justification is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is a legal action in that God declares the sinner righteous--as though he has satisfied the Law of God. This justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: " . . . having now been justified by His blood . . . ," (Rom. 5:9).1 Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24, Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28, 5:1).2 Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12, 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5,Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23)--something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).


(this is so doctrinally deficient)
I disagree with Catholic doctrine based on what the bible teaches about grace :

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c3a2.htm
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

Which part of this Catholic doctrine do you disagree with in regards to the teachings on grace?

don't see how you can disagree or think I'm lying and be offended by telling the truth.

… you don't see how because you don't look. It's all there for you to learn about but you don't. You choose to pass on incorrect faith information while claiming righteousness without understanding the faith's true avenue towards real righteousness with God. The faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it.

And this is what “works”entails… it's not about how much good stuff can I do to get in to the good graces of God, works are the fruit of faith. You don't just want to be righteous you actively work at becoming more and more righteous with God by doing the things he asks, Mark 12:30 . These 'things” you do to get close to God, to become more righteous are called works because you work at your faith to become better with God and your fellow man. The better you treat your fellow man the closer you get to God (the more righteous you become) and the only way to help your fellow man each and every day is called works. Works are the proof of your desire to be righteous in the eyes of the Lord. Works are the culmination of how you feel about God, showing that faith, by acts of good works towards men and obeying the great commandments. Wherever this is the ruling principle in the soul, there is a disposition to every other duty, which is defined by our works leading to ever better relations with our fellow man and furthermore a more righteous communion with God.

[EssentialSacrifice]

plouiswork:
To answer my own question then, it seems to be a difference in philosophy of what happens when the HS is within one (by truly having faith). Or in other words "what do we make of someone who appears to have done no good works? When I myself have no good works to show for my faith?" I would be of the opinion that I can have no way of knowing for others, but if I did not see changes within me for myself I'd be concerned that I was following the wrong path in one way or another.

remembering that "good works" are the outward embodiment of good thoughts, those thoughts urging us on to a continually better relationship with God, you may have more good works under your belt than you know. works are an excellent indicator of " but if I did not see changes within me for myself I'd be concerned that I was following the wrong path in one way or another." Without works, the path is unclear and obstructed. Works show an outward desire to be relationaly close to God by obeying His great commandments. Works are your outward validation that you are on the right path

From my current understanding of Christianity, it seems correct to interpret the Bible as saying that, since there is no way for us to be righteous enough to deserve salvation, the only thing that matters is our willingness to put faith in God's grace.

But what does that mean to truly have faith? Even in that one necessary act, to not delve deeply into faith is to risk falling into a false faith, defeating the purpose of one's conversion.

Correct, keep at it or lose ground... those are the choices.

from:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c3a1.htm
By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, "the obedience of faith".3

Thus, that one feels content with doing no good or even having done no good should be a red flag, for themselves. But it should not be taken as a measure of one's being a "true Christian."

if one is doing no good, no good works then they are not obeying the word of God, to love Him above all else and your neighbor as yourself. A giant red flag for the individual. And yes, if a person acts this way, without the outward expression of love for God and man, then they are not a "true Christian".

That said, it seems that people who choose to be Catholic are asking for a culture which *does* hold them externally accountable. Even if one does not agree that good works are, per se, necessary, the Catholic way puts additional emphasis on this aspect of the Christian life.

The culture doesn't hold us accountable, it's God who does. Why wouldn't you want to put additional emphasis on good works when it's the works that shows you are listening to and obey God's commands and helping your fellow man ? Why wouldn't you want more goodness in your Christian life ?

[RickD]

As I've had these discussions with Byblos and others in the past, it all boils down to a fundamental disagreement of what "works" means. In general, Catholics and Protestants disagree.

Catholicism does not teach works are needed for salvation. But things that Protestants consider "works", Catholics don't. Unless one side can convince the other that its definition of "works" is correct, it's really worthless to argue.

[abelcainsbrother]

acb:
ES read it for yourself because they deny Catholics teach grace and works but then give scripture to back up works.I'm not trying to get in a Protestant vs Catholic battle but me telling the truth about Catholic doctrine is not slander.I did not just make up stuff about Catholics and I disagree with the question asked in the link you posted because i do not believe Catholics teach a person is saved by works,I said that Catholic doctrine combines grace and works for justification and I was right while Protestants rely more on Grace and what Jesus did for us for justification.I don't see how you can disagree or think I'm lying and be offended by telling the truth.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -salvation
does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation?
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved. The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. 

(this is so misinformed)

but me telling the truth about Catholic doctrine is not slander

… so you'd agree that if you weren't telling the truth about the Catholic church it would be slander ?

(this is so misleading)

I said that Catholic doctrine combines grace and works for justification and I was right

… no, acb, you are wrong. There is no combination of grace and works for Catholic justification, in fact, here's the actual view of justification from Catholic sources … it's all about God and His graces, not man's works. see here:

https://carm.org/roman-catholic-view-justification
justification is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is a legal action in that God declares the sinner righteous--as though he has satisfied the Law of God. This justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: " . . . having now been justified by His blood . . . ," (Rom. 5:9).1 Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24, Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28, 5:1).2 Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12, 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5,Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23)--something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).


(this is so doctrinally deficient)
I disagree with Catholic doctrine based on what the bible teaches about grace :

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c3a2.htm
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

Which part of this Catholic doctrine do you disagree with in regards to the teachings on grace?

don't see how you can disagree or think I'm lying and be offended by telling the truth.

… you don't see how because you don't look. It's all there for you to learn about but you don't. You choose to pass on incorrect faith information while claiming righteousness without understanding the faith's true avenue towards real righteousness with God. The faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it.

And this is what “works”entails… it's not about how much good stuff can I do to get in to the good graces of God, works are the fruit of faith. You don't just want to be righteous you actively work at becoming more and more righteous with God by doing the things he asks, Mark 12:30 . These 'things” you do to get close to God, to become more righteous are called works because you work at your faith to become better with God and your fellow man. The better you treat your fellow man the closer you get to God (the more righteous you become) and the only way to help your fellow man each and every day is called works. Works are the proof of your desire to be righteous in the eyes of the Lord. Works are the culmination of how you feel about God, showing that faith, by acts of good works towards men and obeying the great commandments. Wherever this is the ruling principle in the soul, there is a disposition to every other duty, which is defined by our works leading to ever better relations with our fellow man and furthermore a more righteous communion with God.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.I cannot believe you doubt Catholics combine grace and works and I really think it is you that are not being honest.My conscience is clear before God and man Catholics teach grace and works for justification and you know they do.Stop denying it.It is you not being honest by trying tomake it seem there is no difference between Catholocism and Protestants when there is differenes and you know it.Why does it bother you so much that Catholics teac grace and works for justfication? It does botherme,Why you?I menn you can continue to try to deny Catholics teach grace and works but the truth will find its way out.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:
We are just going to have to agree to disagree.I cannot believe you doubt Catholics combine grace and works and I really think it is you that are not being honest.My conscience is clear before God and man Catholics teach grace and works for justification and you know they do.Stop denying it.It is you not being honest by trying tomake it seem there is no difference between Catholocism and Protestants when there is differenes and you know it.Why does it bother you so much that Catholics teac grace and works for justfication? It does botherme,Why you?I menn you can continue to try to deny Catholics teach grace and works but the truth will find its way out.

ACB,

You are misrepresenting EssentialSacrifice here. PLEASE STOP!!!

You are accusing ES of knowingly misleading, by saying he actually believes works are necessary for salvation. I can tell you, as a full-fledged Protestant, you are wrong.

You, I, and ES would probably disagree about the meaning of "works". But that doesn't mean ES believes works are necessary for salvation, and he's lying about it.