Ontology vs epistemology has nothing to do with the problems I mentioned.RickD wrote:Kenny,
Is this the post you are referring to?If it is, I have one response. Ontology vs. epistemology. Know the difference, then you'll begin to understand your error on this.Okay I see, and this is one of the reasons I find the belief that morality as objective; frightening. To believe morality is based upon the word of a Deity, God, another being, etc prevents discourse on the specific moral issue. If right and wrong, is determined by what this person says, what happens when this person says something you believe is wrong? Is there a system in place to state your case? I have always believed the truth should always be up for question. But if God’s word is seen as the ultimate truth, then there will be no questions allowed!
To use Slavery as an example, if your God Yahweh says slavery is wrong, that’s fine as long as you agree slavery is wrong; but what happens if someone says his God Ahura Mazda says slavery is good? Sure you can yell till you’re blue in the face and say Ahura Mazda is a false God, and he will yell till he is blue in the face that Yahweh is a false God, and neither of you will get anywhere because the same faith that you have that Yahweh is the moral base is the exact same faith that he uses to determine Ahura Mazda is. And as I’ve said before, the problem with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth!
Objective morality doesn’t solve moral problems, it only kicks the can one step further down the road and prevents discourse on moral issues by saying God said it, I believe it, and that settles it! And that is a frightening attitude to have IMO
Ken
In defense of objective morals
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Re: In defense of objective morals
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Of course it does. Specifically the underlined. If you understood the difference between ontology and epistemology, you wouldn't say that. But that's what's so frustrating Kenny. It's really not that difficult to understand, if you make an effort to understand.Kenny wrote:Ontology vs epistemology has nothing to do with the problems I mentioned.RickD wrote:Kenny,
Is this the post you are referring to?If it is, I have one response. Ontology vs. epistemology. Know the difference, then you'll begin to understand your error on this.Okay I see, and this is one of the reasons I find the belief that morality as objective; frightening. To believe morality is based upon the word of a Deity, God, another being, etc prevents discourse on the specific moral issue. If right and wrong, is determined by what this person says, what happens when this person says something you believe is wrong? Is there a system in place to state your case? I have always believed the truth should always be up for question. But if God’s word is seen as the ultimate truth, then there will be no questions allowed!
To use Slavery as an example, if your God Yahweh says slavery is wrong, that’s fine as long as you agree slavery is wrong; but what happens if someone says his God Ahura Mazda says slavery is good? Sure you can yell till you’re blue in the face and say Ahura Mazda is a false God, and he will yell till he is blue in the face that Yahweh is a false God, and neither of you will get anywhere because the same faith that you have that Yahweh is the moral base is the exact same faith that he uses to determine Ahura Mazda is. And as I’ve said before, the problem with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth!
Objective morality doesn’t solve moral problems, it only kicks the can one step further down the road and prevents discourse on moral issues by saying God said it, I believe it, and that settles it! And that is a frightening attitude to have IMO
Ken
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: In defense of objective morals
I know the difference between Ontology and epistemology, but I don't see what this has to do with the underlined. Please explain.RickD wrote:Of course it does. Specifically the underlined. If you understood the difference between ontology and epistemology, you wouldn't say that. But that's what's so frustrating Kenny. It's really not that difficult to understand, if you make an effort to understand.Kenny wrote:Ontology vs epistemology has nothing to do with the problems I mentioned.RickD wrote:Kenny,
Is this the post you are referring to?If it is, I have one response. Ontology vs. epistemology. Know the difference, then you'll begin to understand your error on this.Okay I see, and this is one of the reasons I find the belief that morality as objective; frightening. To believe morality is based upon the word of a Deity, God, another being, etc prevents discourse on the specific moral issue. If right and wrong, is determined by what this person says, what happens when this person says something you believe is wrong? Is there a system in place to state your case? I have always believed the truth should always be up for question. But if God’s word is seen as the ultimate truth, then there will be no questions allowed!
To use Slavery as an example, if your God Yahweh says slavery is wrong, that’s fine as long as you agree slavery is wrong; but what happens if someone says his God Ahura Mazda says slavery is good? Sure you can yell till you’re blue in the face and say Ahura Mazda is a false God, and he will yell till he is blue in the face that Yahweh is a false God, and neither of you will get anywhere because the same faith that you have that Yahweh is the moral base is the exact same faith that he uses to determine Ahura Mazda is. And as I’ve said before, the problem with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth!
Objective morality doesn’t solve moral problems, it only kicks the can one step further down the road and prevents discourse on moral issues by saying God said it, I believe it, and that settles it! And that is a frightening attitude to have IMO
Ken
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Ok. Here's a brief explanation of the differences for others following along:Kenny wrote:I know the difference between Ontology and epistemology, but I don't see what this has to do with the underlined. Please explain.RickD wrote:Of course it does. Specifically the underlined. If you understood the difference between ontology and epistemology, you wouldn't say that. But that's what's so frustrating Kenny. It's really not that difficult to understand, if you make an effort to understand.Kenny wrote:Ontology vs epistemology has nothing to do with the problems I mentioned.RickD wrote:Kenny,
Is this the post you are referring to?If it is, I have one response. Ontology vs. epistemology. Know the difference, then you'll begin to understand your error on this.Okay I see, and this is one of the reasons I find the belief that morality as objective; frightening. To believe morality is based upon the word of a Deity, God, another being, etc prevents discourse on the specific moral issue. If right and wrong, is determined by what this person says, what happens when this person says something you believe is wrong? Is there a system in place to state your case? I have always believed the truth should always be up for question. But if God’s word is seen as the ultimate truth, then there will be no questions allowed!
To use Slavery as an example, if your God Yahweh says slavery is wrong, that’s fine as long as you agree slavery is wrong; but what happens if someone says his God Ahura Mazda says slavery is good? Sure you can yell till you’re blue in the face and say Ahura Mazda is a false God, and he will yell till he is blue in the face that Yahweh is a false God, and neither of you will get anywhere because the same faith that you have that Yahweh is the moral base is the exact same faith that he uses to determine Ahura Mazda is. And as I’ve said before, the problem with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth!
Objective morality doesn’t solve moral problems, it only kicks the can one step further down the road and prevents discourse on moral issues by saying God said it, I believe it, and that settles it! And that is a frightening attitude to have IMO
Ken
Ken
From:http://www.ask.com/world-view/differenc ... 101c043920The difference between epistemology and ontology in part is the subject that is being studied by each. In ontology, the study of being or existence and questions of what kinds of entities exist are studied. In epistemology, the study of knowing and how we come to know and questions about what knowledge is and how knowledge is possible are studied.
So, with that explained, OM in no way prevents discussion about what is objectively right or wrong. The discussion of epistemology regarding OM, "allows" us to discuss what may be objectively right or wrong.
I hope I did justice explaining it, and I hope that helps.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: In defense of objective morals
So are you saying when God says "X" is wrong, this is open for discussion? That you would be willing to entertain the possibility that God might be wrong?RickD wrote: Ok. Here's a brief explanation of the differences for others following along:From:http://www.ask.com/world-view/differenc ... 101c043920The difference between epistemology and ontology in part is the subject that is being studied by each. In ontology, the study of being or existence and questions of what kinds of entities exist are studied. In epistemology, the study of knowing and how we come to know and questions about what knowledge is and how knowledge is possible are studied.
So, with that explained, OM in no way prevents discussion about what is objectively right or wrong. The discussion of epistemology regarding OM, "allows" us to discuss what may be objectively right or wrong.
I hope I did justice explaining it, and I hope that helps.
Ken
Last edited by Kenny on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Good point.PaulSacramento wrote:It is very simple and I don't why why people STILL continue to argue this.
Morals are objective:
The notion of right and wrong, good and bad is universal to ALL people and ALL culture through recorded history.
The only thing that IS subjective is WHAT is viewed as right and wrong BUt the notion, the understanding of there BEING a RIGHT and a WRONG is absolute and objective as recorded history shows us.
If you disagree, please show evidence of any culture or group that believed that ANYTHING is permissible and that there is no good or bad at all.
Not theoretical evidence ( hearsay) but concrete evidence.
And FWIW I don't think you'll be able to find a culture in which the concepts of good and bad don't exist. Some researchers have been developing a universal metalanguage which has a very paltry number of words (around sixty) that they have so far found as existing in every known natural language. The concepts of "good" and "bad" have been among these for decades without disconfirmation.
Anyway,
What's stopping us from questioning what God says? If you present god A, and I present god B, and god B is shown to be immoral, doesn't that mean we've ruled out god B?Kenny wrote:To believe morality is based upon the word of a Deity, God, another being, etc prevents discourse on the specific moral issue. If right and wrong, is determined by what this person says, what happens when this person says something you believe is wrong?
EDIT - oops, I think I just hit the same thing Rick already pointed out.
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Theists don't seem to operate that way. They start from the position that God A is right no matter what! And if God A says act "X" is right when it appears act "X" is wrong, they will assume there is something wrong with how they are perceiving act "X" and will defend God A's word at all cost.plouiswork wrote:What's stopping us from questioning what God says? If you present god A, and I present god B, and god B is shown to be immoral, doesn't that mean we've ruled out god B?
EDIT - oops, I think I just hit the same thing Rick already pointed out.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Kenny,Kenny wrote:So are you saying when God says "X" is wrong, this is open for discussion? That you would be willing to entertain the possibility that God might be wrong?RickD wrote: Ok. Here's a brief explanation of the differences for others following along:From:http://www.ask.com/world-view/differenc ... 101c043920The difference between epistemology and ontology in part is the subject that is being studied by each. In ontology, the study of being or existence and questions of what kinds of entities exist are studied. In epistemology, the study of knowing and how we come to know and questions about what knowledge is and how knowledge is possible are studied.
So, with that explained, OM in no way prevents discussion about what is objectively right or wrong. The discussion of epistemology regarding OM, "allows" us to discuss what may be objectively right or wrong.
I hope I did justice explaining it, and I hope that helps.
Ken
What is objectively wrong, is a good discussion. But you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we are entertaining the possibility that God may be wrong. We are entertaining the possibility that our understanding may be wrong.
You still aren't getting the concept of "God". If God exists, He is perfect in all His ways. Anything less, and we're describing something other than God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: In defense of objective morals
That is a valid concern: many Theists do appear to harbor the belief that the morals ought to confirm to the mythos of God rather than the reverse. However, this isn't evidence against Theism but evidence against that god.Kenny wrote:Theists don't seem to operate that way. They start from the position that God A is right no matter what! And if God A says act "X" is right when it appears act "X" is wrong, they will assume there is something wrong with how they are perceiving act "X" and will defend God A's word at all cost.plouiswork wrote:What's stopping us from questioning what God says? If you present god A, and I present god B, and god B is shown to be immoral, doesn't that mean we've ruled out god B?
EDIT - oops, I think I just hit the same thing Rick already pointed out.
Ken
Additionally, the concern I believe Theists have in turn is how can we agree what is or isn't moral? What happens if I feel aborting embryos is okay and someone else feels it's murder? On what basis do we decide which is right?
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Do you have a proof God does not exist?edwardmurphy wrote:I don't think that objective morality can exist without some power in the background to enforce the rules (i.e. gods). Since gods don't exist there is no such thing as objective morality. I'm not sure why that's a problem.
It's pretty simple to identify which kinds of behavior will lead to a safe, prosperous, stable society and which won't, and it's equally simple to establish that the vast majority of people in the history of the world prefer safety, prosperity, and stability to danger, destitution, and chaos. From there it seems reasonable to generally categorize the socially adaptive behaviors as "moral" and the "maladaptive ones as "immoral."
That's good enough for me.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: In defense of objective morals
You’ve just proved my point! If we go back to the scenario about slavery, the Guy who claimed Ahura Mazda said slavery is good will claim your understanding of slavery is wrong, and would defend that claim to the end because he will not be open to the possibility that Ahura Mazda might be wrong. At least if he believed morality were subjective, we could have a discussion about the golden rule, empathy for others, etc. but because he believes morality is objective, there is nothing to discuss! This is what I find frightening about those who claim Objective morality.RickD wrote:Kenny,Kenny wrote:So are you saying when God says "X" is wrong, this is open for discussion? That you would be willing to entertain the possibility that God might be wrong?RickD wrote: Ok. Here's a brief explanation of the differences for others following along:From:http://www.ask.com/world-view/differenc ... 101c043920The difference between epistemology and ontology in part is the subject that is being studied by each. In ontology, the study of being or existence and questions of what kinds of entities exist are studied. In epistemology, the study of knowing and how we come to know and questions about what knowledge is and how knowledge is possible are studied.
So, with that explained, OM in no way prevents discussion about what is objectively right or wrong. The discussion of epistemology regarding OM, "allows" us to discuss what may be objectively right or wrong.
I hope I did justice explaining it, and I hope that helps.
Ken
What is objectively wrong, is a good discussion. But you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we are entertaining the possibility that God may be wrong. We are entertaining the possibility that our understanding may be wrong.
You still aren't getting the concept of "God". If God exists, He is perfect in all His ways. Anything less, and we're describing something other than God.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Kenny wrote:Theists don't seem to operate that way. They start from the position that God A is right no matter what! And if God A says act "X" is right when it appears act "X" is wrong, they will assume there is something wrong with how they are perceiving act "X" and will defend God A's word at all cost.plouiswork wrote:What's stopping us from questioning what God says? If you present god A, and I present god B, and god B is shown to be immoral, doesn't that mean we've ruled out god B?
EDIT - oops, I think I just hit the same thing Rick already pointed out.
Ken
No, this is the problem with those who believe morality is "objective" and their idea of God is the "moral dictator".plouiswork wrote:That is a valid concern: many Theists do appear to harbor the belief that the morals ought to confirm to the mythos of God rather than the reverse. However, this isn't evidence against Theism but evidence against that god.
If you agree morality is subjective, you are open to discussing it, and that is at least a start!plouiswork wrote:Additionally, the concern I believe Theists have in turn is how can we agree what is or isn't moral? What happens if I feel aborting embryos is okay and someone else feels it's murder? On what basis do we decide which is right?
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: In defense of objective morals
It's interesting that I can still discuss if something is right or wrong, even though I believe in OM.Kenny wrote:You’ve just proved my point! If we go back to the scenario about slavery, the Guy who claimed Ahura Mazda said slavery is good will claim your understanding of slavery is wrong, and would defend that claim to the end because he will not be open to the possibility that Ahura Mazda might be wrong. At least if he believed morality were subjective, we could have a discussion about the golden rule, empathy for others, etc. but because he believes morality is objective, there is nothing to discuss! This is what I find frightening about those who claim Objective morality.RickD wrote:Kenny,Kenny wrote:So are you saying when God says "X" is wrong, this is open for discussion? That you would be willing to entertain the possibility that God might be wrong?RickD wrote: Ok. Here's a brief explanation of the differences for others following along:From:http://www.ask.com/world-view/differenc ... 101c043920The difference between epistemology and ontology in part is the subject that is being studied by each. In ontology, the study of being or existence and questions of what kinds of entities exist are studied. In epistemology, the study of knowing and how we come to know and questions about what knowledge is and how knowledge is possible are studied.
So, with that explained, OM in no way prevents discussion about what is objectively right or wrong. The discussion of epistemology regarding OM, "allows" us to discuss what may be objectively right or wrong.
I hope I did justice explaining it, and I hope that helps.
Ken
What is objectively wrong, is a good discussion. But you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we are entertaining the possibility that God may be wrong. We are entertaining the possibility that our understanding may be wrong.
You still aren't getting the concept of "God". If God exists, He is perfect in all His ways. Anything less, and we're describing something other than God.
Ken
You still don't understand the difference between ontology and epistemology.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: In defense of objective morals
Ken, I do not believe RickD is just meaning to insult your understanding of matters.
I do not know what you've read previously, what websites you value for your information,
but if you got your understanding from a particular source then it seems they're confused about their philosophy.
To help you understand the distinction RickD is noting between "moral epistemology" and "moral ontology", I tried to find a video.
There are probably better, but I only came across one video and I'd recommend watching it:
Many of your points often tackle epistemological concerns of how moral knowledge is had.
And yet, you discuss morality of though is actually exists (ontology).
The heart of the argument from morality isn't how we know morality exists, or who is correct, but that moral right and/or wrong do truly exist.
Consider consciousness.
We don't know how it came to be, but we accept that such is true of us and others who appear to experience and think like we do.
Our not knowing how it arises does not negate that conscious creatures do in fact exist.
Furthermore, whether or not someone sees colours in exactly the same shade and way that we do, does not mean that the colours, sight, or even consciousness doesn't actually exist.
You see, "conscious epistemological" concerns have no real impact upon "conscious ontology".
I do not know what you've read previously, what websites you value for your information,
but if you got your understanding from a particular source then it seems they're confused about their philosophy.
To help you understand the distinction RickD is noting between "moral epistemology" and "moral ontology", I tried to find a video.
There are probably better, but I only came across one video and I'd recommend watching it:
Many of your points often tackle epistemological concerns of how moral knowledge is had.
And yet, you discuss morality of though is actually exists (ontology).
The heart of the argument from morality isn't how we know morality exists, or who is correct, but that moral right and/or wrong do truly exist.
Consider consciousness.
We don't know how it came to be, but we accept that such is true of us and others who appear to experience and think like we do.
Our not knowing how it arises does not negate that conscious creatures do in fact exist.
Furthermore, whether or not someone sees colours in exactly the same shade and way that we do, does not mean that the colours, sight, or even consciousness doesn't actually exist.
You see, "conscious epistemological" concerns have no real impact upon "conscious ontology".
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)