Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[RickD]

So you are saying you don't know Jesus nor dose most of the others on here that say they live there life the way they wont to.



John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


You told me earlier that the verse meant abiding in Christ not salvation. Jesus said here that if a man (which means anyone) dose not abide in him he will be cast into fire.

I already addressed that here.

[jpbg33]

it is a pretty big coincidences that they will be burned and there is fire in hell.

later on Paul refers to the vine as well he said that gentiles were grafted into the vine referring to us being able to be saved and he said we could be taken out as easy as we were grafted in. So me and Paul think it is all about salvation

one other thing can Christians not know Jesus

I'm pretty sure knowing him is what is mean as knowing Jesus as your personal savior.

that is why people ask others if they know Jesus as there personal savior.

which is why I know that is what 1John 2;4 is talking about.

[RickD]

Jpbg,

At this point we are just going around in circles.

If you want to live your life ignoring God's promises that He will keep us secure in Him, go ahead. Just let me tell you that if you feel like you always need to keep from sinning, in order to keep salvation, and God's approval, you are burdening yourself with something that is a very heavy, unnecessary burden.

Trust God for the salvation He began in you. He is faithful, and He will complete it. Stop trusting in your own goodness(lack of sin).

You would be a much more productive believer, if you just rested in what God accomplished through Christ. Instead of relying on your own goodness, which is filthy rags.

Rest in Him, and you'll be amazed how the Holy Spirit will work in you!

[jpbg33]

that is where ya'll are getting me wrong I don't believe you have to do these things to believe in God but because you believe in God you do these thing and if your heart is right then you will wont to do good things.

that is what I think john was saying. basically if your hearts not right then you are not saved.


You really didn't answer my questions and most of them are new ones.

[crochet1949]

OSAS -- is true because once the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer He never leaves no matter. Eternally secure in Christ. A believer Will exhibit Fruits of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc. If these traits are Not being observed in a person --then chances Are they are not born-again. Because 'by their fruits we shall know them'.
There Is another side to that. There Is 'easy-believism' at work in society. The concept of walking down an aisle -- say a prayer led by someone else and maybe sign a card and off the person goes. No one took time to really talk to the person. Does the person understand that he's really a sinner and in need of salvation? Or does the person feel that he needs to do something to Earn his salvation? If a person isn't really understanding his personal need --isn't sure that God's grace is Really enough. Then all the prayers in the world aren't going to save him. And, yes, only God Really knows our heart. And that is the 'cop-out' heard so often.
So - yes- once saved Always saved ----- if a person questions his/her salvation by all means talk to God about it. Tell Him you're not sure and take the appropriate steps To accept Christ. That's what I did a long time ago.

[LittleHamster]

One interesting point in this argument:

It dose not matter how much you argue with someone about salvation, you probably won't convince them about anything on the subject until they receive the holy spirit themselves.

I'm guessing that this is God's way of ensuring that only when a person is truly repentant (as deemed by God and God only) and is therefore, ready to be given salvation themselves.

So why bother arguing at all ? (rhetorical). For one, arguments like this can definitely help give further assurance of eternal security especially for those people undergoing various trials and tribulations (doubt tends to creep in very quickly when one is under stress).


Keep at it jpbg... You are doing a great service for all. I would even dare say, God will give you eternal security one day (if he hasn't secretly scheduled it for you already).

[crochet1949]

I agree-- there should Never be arguing about salvation. Expressing thoughts about it - yes. But there Does need to be an understanding of what salvation IS and how to Get It. And there Should be 'fruit' seen in a person as a result Of.

A person isn't 'given' salvation -- by anyone. Salvation isn't 'given' or 'received' as a person receives or is given 'communion'.

The Holy Spirit's convicting power. Draws a person. I experienced that 'drawing power' many times during church services. I resisted for a long time. Finally stopped resisting and accepted Christ in the seat during the church service. But pastor assured us that a person can be Anywhere / any Time and talk to God and accept Him as Personal Savior. And if a person isn't really sure of their salvation -- by all mean Make sure.

@jpbg
What other questions do you have -- I was reading your comments and I agree with you.

[RickD]

crotchet1949 wrote:
I agree-- there should Never be arguing about salvation. Expressing thoughts about it - yes. But there Does need to be an understanding of what salvation IS and how to Get It. And there Should be 'fruit' seen in a person as a result Of.

What do you think salvation is? Is it synonymous with everlasting/eternal life?

A person isn't 'given' salvation -- by anyone. Salvation isn't 'given' or 'received' as a person receives or is given 'communion'.

God certainly has given us eternal life, through faith in Christ.

[crochet1949]

Salvation is the result Of a person recognizing their need Of having their sins forgiven. We are all born sinners -- the wages of sin is death. Death would mean spending eternity in hell -- out of the presense of God. Salvation Is a person realizing their need For having their sins being forgiven -- that Jesus Christ shed His blood for our sins -- He died, In our place, took our sins on Himself, went to hell For us cause He is the only One who could do that and come back up Out of hell -- being raised from the dead bodily. It's called the' '"gift of salvation's" being made available to all of us By God Through faith in Christ. One of the by-products is a clear conscience / inner peace / eternal life in heaven.
Through salvation -- God sees us as justified / just as if we'd never sinned. So that as a result we can have fellowship with God.

There Are those who believe that a person receives the body and blood of Christ / thus, salvation / by taking communion. But That is not found in Scripture.

[melanie]

I don't care if you are a woman or not if you have a good answer I will take it, but you are not answering my question.

Weather we agree with someone or not we should be treating each other with respect and I have respectfully answer your question but you have yet to answer mine. You may not like the answer I gave you but that was the same answer your osas friends gave me when asking about thing that happened before Jesus died on the cross. didn't see anyone throwing that answer under the but then.

Paul talks about Jews thinking they were better then others more the one's, and that was what he was referring to there



this is a question that I have.

if osas were true then why is the bible full of ....

An example

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If osas were true then this verse would not be in the bible.

if he can take pot shot at me I should be able to take pot shot at him to.

I aplogise for my tone jpbg.
I could have dealt with that better.
These issues of OSAS, eternal security, how does a person really know they saved, the state of a believers salvation all center around Grace.
That is the Gospel of Jesus, the Good News, The Living Word.....
By the Grace of God we enter into His kingdom as sons and daughters because of the the sacrafice made by Jesus on the cross.
Many believe we are saved by Grace but we are not kept by Grace.
The true gospel of grace is hard to get out head around, it is mispresented in the pulpits, by pastors and preachers and there is no end of literature that distorts this message.
When christians say it is by grace alone we are saved, and not by anything we do, it gives an impression like that is a licence to sin. That is not the case.
When scripture is looked at under the cloak of works then there can be an unbalanced interpretation. Verses seem conflicting. How can scripture speak of sin in one verse then in another state that works are like filthy rags and we are only saved through grace. When you truly understand Grace when scripture is interpreted through Jesus' finished work on the cross, the true gospel of grace aligns scripture and the words of wisdom regarding sin.

Christians who have taken on the role of 'fruit inspectors' look around and try to judge who is truly saved under a performance based understanding and faith. Who's saved, who was never saved, who is in danger of becoming unsaved'
It is looking at works to determine salvation. Grace is thrown in there by the admission that it is by grace that we are saved but then it is up to us to maintain it.
Grace saves us but does not maintain us.
This is not the Gospel.
It is a false gospel and it has far reaching implications for the body of Christ.

The Grace shown to us through the love of Our Father secures us as His sons and daughters.
All that is required on our part is Faith.
We do not do good works to save us, or maintain salvation, we do so out of love. Good works reach far further than what can be seen by us. We look at who's being good as opposed to bad, by our understanding. Is someone drinking, smoking, living out of wedlock, having an affair, addicted to porn or whatever. We see that as bad fruit. The 'fruit inspectors' will have a lot to say about the salvation of such people. Performance is poor.
Fruit is shown in many ways, by the most struggling christian.
Love, compassion, understanding, patience and empathy. These things are not so easily picked upon by the fruit inspectors. They are conditions of the heart not of the flesh.
We cannot always see the good work God is doing within a person.
They may be living with a partner, occassionally drinking too much, perhaps prone to swearing, or they could be a dirty bum living on the streets in poverty, addiction and despair. The exact kind of people that have bad fruit clearly on show but also be extremely kind, and generous. Have incredible compassion and empathy for others. To an extent that the 'fruit inspectors' have truly never grasped.

Personally I view the 'fruit inspectors' like the Pharisee in the story with the tax collector. Whilst they are so busy inspecting other Christians to gauge their salvation they are placing themselves outside of Gods favour by having this desire to do so to begin with. In Christ' day the Pharisees despised Jesus for offering the kingdom to poor, oppressed, weak sinners whom He made equal to them.


I really like the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
Some worked hard all day, then others only worked for an hour but all got paid the same. The ones who had been hard at it, thought it was unfair. How could the manager pay them the same as others who had worked only one hour. They were the hard workers, they got the job done, sweated the most.
But the manager had offered them one denarius which was very generous and they agreed before starting the work. It wasn't unfair, they got paid exactly what was promised to them.
The payment is the Kingdom of heaven.
Some of us will toil longer, work harder, be better workers than others but we will all get the same reward as others who appear to do very little.
God's Grace will fall upon every worker in the vineyard.
Whether we like it or think it fair, or even if we believe it takes away from most hardworking of us.
That is the extent of His Grace and I think it's bloody awesome!!


On a side note, the revelation verse is not speaking about salvation.
It is referring to a time after the second coming of Christ after the tribulation.
The setting up of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth when Christians have already been well established by refusing the mark of the beast and enduring to the end of the tribulation. Those on earth who have rejected Christ and have worshipped beast will have that fate.

[crochet1949]

Since the Holy Spirit comes Immediately to indwell a born-again believer -- there Will be 'fruits of the Spirit' in their lives. No matter if the person Is homeless or a millionaire -- Christ in a person's life Does change them -- for the better. It's not the concept of being fruit "Inspectors" as it is being a fruit 'observer'. If I'm observing my next door neighbor -- he's Been doing 'such and such' and then hears the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- if he Continues Doing 'such and such' as routinely as he Had been -- then I, as the neighbor would have reason to question. And That is the very thing that turns people Away From Christianity -- the 'unsaved' world is Watching 'our' behavior. They are watching Us to determine if this Christianity 'stuff' is really Working. If it isn't changing any outward behavior -- then it hasn't changed anything Inside, either. So Why bother to 'go to church' or 'read my Bible'. cause it probably Won't do anything different for me, either. And just Maybe I'm looking for something better for My life. Maybe I'm having problems with 'whatever' and have been told that 'going to church' will make it all better. So -- just Maybe -- all of us 'church goers' Need to check our lives -- does the 'homeless' person observe our love towards Him? Does he see us at the soup kitchen helping him get his next meal or helping sort out clothes so he can Get his clothes?
Does our church going and Bible reading Make a difference in our lives -- or are we acting just like the rest of Society.

[crochet1949]

Once the Holy Spirit comes To indwell the believer -- Ephesians 1:13 - 14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of His glory.

[Nicki]

I think the OSAS people are making an assumption that unbelief is a sin like any other. Yes, salvation is dependent on God's grace but also on our belief; the alternative is universalism which doesn't require faith from anyone. Why shouldn't our salvation continue to be dependent on our belief - in other words, that we have the choice to turn away from God? I've always found Jesus' words about unfruitful branches being thrown in the fire pretty scary. The parable of the workers in the vineyard however was about those who were there at the end of the day, no matter when they'd started. Would someone who'd gone home early have been paid? I'm not sure. I always assumed as well that the promises of future redemption etc. would only continue to apply to those who didn't turn their back on them.

[RickD]

I think the OSAS people are making an assumption that unbelief is a sin like any other. Yes, salvation is dependent on God's grace but also on our belief; the alternative is universalism which doesn't require faith from anyone. Why shouldn't our salvation continue to be dependent on our belief - in other words, that we have the choice to turn away from God? I've always found Jesus' words about unfruitful branches being thrown in the fire pretty scary. The parable of the workers in the vineyard however was about those who were there at the end of the day, no matter when they'd started. Would someone who'd gone home early have been paid? I'm not sure. I always assumed as well that the promises of future redemption etc. would only continue to apply to those who didn't turn their back on them.

Nicki,

The problem with that, would be that God's promises would be dependent upon us. God promises that when we first believe/trust Christ, we are sealed for redemption. We still can turn away from God, and that certainly has consequences. Such as a more difficult life, loss of rewards, etc.

Just look at probably the most well-known bible verse:
John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

At the moment you believe in Christ, you have eternal life. God promises eternal life when you trust Christ. He doesn't make a conditional promise that you only have temporary life, but it becomes eternal if you continue trusting. No, it's eternal! We need to rely on God, not on our own ability to continue believing.

God promises to keep us.
Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20

He is faithful even when we aren't!

[Nicki]

I think the OSAS people are making an assumption that unbelief is a sin like any other. Yes, salvation is dependent on God's grace but also on our belief; the alternative is universalism which doesn't require faith from anyone. Why shouldn't our salvation continue to be dependent on our belief - in other words, that we have the choice to turn away from God? I've always found Jesus' words about unfruitful branches being thrown in the fire pretty scary. The parable of the workers in the vineyard however was about those who were there at the end of the day, no matter when they'd started. Would someone who'd gone home early have been paid? I'm not sure. I always assumed as well that the promises of future redemption etc. would only continue to apply to those who didn't turn their back on them.

Nicki,

The problem with that, would be that God's promises would be dependent upon us. God promises that when we first believe/trust Christ, we are sealed for redemption. We still can turn away from God, and that certainly has consequences. Such as a more difficult life, loss of rewards, etc.

Just look at probably the most well-known bible verse:
John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

At the moment you believe in Christ, you have eternal life. God promises eternal life when you trust Christ. He doesn't make a conditional promise that you only have temporary life, but it becomes eternal if you continue trusting. No, it's eternal! We need to rely on God, not on our own ability to continue believing.

God promises to keep us.
Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20

He is faithful even when we aren't!

Maybe . You're starting to convince me.