The Anti-Christ to defeat all believers?

[waynes world]

There certainly is Biblical proof for the rapture and I have listed several scriptures. There has to be a rapture or we're dead in our sins. Its okay with me if Puritan Lad believes the way he does, but I see no scripture that forbids Christians from holding on to the pre-trib view. God isn't going to ask us what view of the end times we hold when we stand before him. Some come across like it were the case. We have yet to face the tribulation. Israel has to return to its homeland before any tribulation or resurrection happens. Just look at Daniel and Ezekiel and you will see that.

[bizzt]

There has to be a rapture or we're dead in our sins. .

The only way we will be Dead in our Sins if Christ did not Die on the Cross. The Rapture has nothing to do with the Resurrection. The Rapture is a Theory that ones who are Dead in Christ and who are alive are Raptured up before the Great Tribulation. It has nothing to do with the Resurrection! There is no Proof what so ever that the Rapture has to take place for us to be alive in Jesus Christ. When I gave My Soul to Jesus right there I was transformed! God sees Christ in Me! BECAUSE Jesus Died on the Cross and was then Resurrected. If you believe in the Pre-Trib you must also believe that there is a Rapture and then there is the Resurrection. Or do you have a different View?

[waynes world]

I believe there is a rapture in which Jesus returns for his sanits who will gather with him in the clouds 1 Cor 15:51. Christ will not tuch the ground the first time. But the resurrection happens later when Christ splits the mount of Olives in two. Those who were saved during the trubulation and survived the plagues will join Christ and reign with hin for 1000 years. After that there will be another "resurrection" which will involve the rest of those who are the ungodly and there will be a judgment. Thats what the OT refers to as the "day of the Lord." I hope that makes it clearer. But Israel has to return to its homeland before anything in Revelation happens.

[puritan lad]

I believe there is a rapture in which Jesus returns for his sanits who will gather with him in the clouds 1 Cor 15:51. Christ will not tuch the ground the first time. But the resurrection happens later when Christ splits the mount of Olives in two.

.
OK Wayne. Explain this...

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

After that there will be another "resurrection" which will involve the rest of those who are the ungodly and there will be a judgment.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

But Israel has to return to its homeland before anything in Revelation happens.

Give us the exact scriptures please...

[waynes world]

1 thes 4 -16-17 can only mean one thing: There is a time when the saints will join with Christ in the clouds to reign with him forever. Daniel and Ezekiel have plenty of passages that say that Israel must return to its homeland before any tribulation starts. Just look at matt 24 in which Jesus talks about the fig tree. That came true in 1948. The generation that was refered to happens after Israel becomes a nation. If we are going to call the time of Nero the tribulation because he was evil then by that logic we must look at the time of Moses as the tribulation. There were far more people that were murdered under Pharaoph than under Nero. Plus Revelation was written later than Nero's time. Hitler should have been the anti-christ if you look at the evil he caused. There was one thing missing: Israel wasn't a nation yet.

[puritan lad]

1 thes 4 -16-17 can only mean one thing: There is a time when the saints will join with Christ in the clouds to reign with him forever.

Agreed. But where's the pre-trib rapture?

Daniel and Ezekiel have plenty of passages that say that Israel must return to its homeland before any tribulation starts.

Good. Then you should have no problem quoting one. Go for it.

Just look at matt 24 in which Jesus talks about the fig tree. That came true in 1948.

Please explain. What does the parable of the fig tree have to do with 1948? Make the connection for us.

The generation that was refered to happens after Israel becomes a nation.

Says who? Jesus said "this generation", the one He was talking to.

If we are going to call the time of Nero the tribulation because he was evil then by that logic we must look at the time of Moses as the tribulation. There were far more people that were murdered under Pharaoh than under Nero. Plus Revelation was written later than Nero's time. Hitler should have been the anti-christ if you look at the evil he caused. There was one thing missing: Israel wasn't a nation yet.

Israel wasn't a nation before 70 AD? What were they?
And I'm still waiting for your proof that Revelation was written later then Nero's time. All of the evidence, taken together, disagrees.

[waynes world]

Its a pre-trib rapture that Paul is talking about in 1 Thes 4. Paul does not write about anything that has already happened. That wouldn't make sense. None of the plagues happened in 70ad. Israel wasn't a nation until 1948. It certainly wasn't a nation in 70ad. The opposite happened then. The nation was dispersed, just like Jesus foretold in Matt 24.

[puritan lad]

I believe there is a rapture in which Jesus returns for his sanits who will gather with him in the clouds 1 Cor 15:51. Christ will not tuch the ground the first time. But the resurrection happens later when Christ splits the mount of Olives in two.

Its a pre-trib rapture that Paul is talking about in 1 Thes 4.

Which is it Wayne? Does the resurrection take place before or after the rapture? Where does Paul mention anything about a tribulation period in 1 Thess. 4? And you still haven't answered my questions.

You wrote, “Daniel and Ezekiel have plenty of passages that say that Israel must return to its homeland before any tribulation starts.” Please quote one of these passages for us.

You wrote, “Just look at matt 24 in which Jesus talks about the fig tree. That came true in 1948." You then wrote, “The nation was dispersed, just like Jesus foretold in Matt 24.” Which is it? Does Matthew 24 refer to the dispersement in 70 AD, or to 1948?

You wrote, “Plus Revelation was written later than Nero's time”, despite the overwhelming evidence that I posted to the contrary. On what basis do you make this claim?

[Felgar]

Let me catch up because this is an interesting conversation. I want to clarify Puritan's beliefs mostly.

Bizzt said that you don't think there's biblical support for the rapture. I claim that 1 Thes 4 is that support. What is your position here? Did this happen in 70AD? Wouldn't someone have written about such an extrodinary event?

And tying into that, do you not agree that the 1 Thes 4 event occurs prior to Christ reigning on Earth? Maybe Wayne can provide some scriptural support for that...

Also let it be noted that Isreal was NOT a nation in 70 AD, because they were under the authority of Rome. So any scripture that Wayne can provide which can establish that Isreal must be a nation before this happens must be taken very seriously.

And finally to Bizzt, I think that 1 Thes 4 does tie the rapture and the resurrection together. They are not completely unrelated as you just suggested.

[puritan lad]

Hello Felgar,

Bizzt said that you don't think there's biblical support for the rapture. I claim that 1 Thes 4 is that support. What is your position here? Did this happen in 70AD? Wouldn't someone have written about such an extrodinary event?

1 Thess. 4 refers to the resurrection. Verse 16 clearly says that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then the events of verse 17 take place. The Bible clearly teaches that the resurrection takes place on the last day (Dan. 12:13, John 6:39, 40, 44), not before the tribulation. In fact, 1 Thess. makes no mention of a tribulation period whatsoever. Therefore, verse 17 doesn't describe the "rapture", at least as it is currently defined.

And tying into that, do you not agree that the 1 Thes 4 event occurs prior to Christ reigning on Earth? Maybe Wayne can provide some scriptural support for that...

I don't believe in a literal reign on earth. He currently has "all authority... in heaven and on earth". 1 Thess. 4 is a future event, but cannot be used to support the idea of a "pre-trib" rapture.

Also let it be noted that Israel was NOT a nation in 70 AD, because they were under the authority of Rome. So any scripture that Wayne can provide which can establish that Isreal must be a nation before this happens must be taken very seriously.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... &x=16&y=12

As we can see, your definition of a nation is debatable, but irrelevant. There is no NT passage that refers to Israel becoming a nation again. All of the OT passages were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile.

And finally to Bizzt, I think that 1 Thes 4 does tie the rapture and the resurrection together. They are not completely unrelated as you just suggested.

Bingo Felgar. You just blew away the idea that 1 Thess. 4 refers to a "pre-trib" rapture, although the term “rapture” is to be used very loosely here, since it happens on “the last day”. No one will be “Left Behind”. The Great Tribulation is over. It happened within the Apostle's generation, just like Jesus said it would (Matthew 24:21, 34).

[Felgar]

Bingo Felgar. You just blew away the idea that 1 Thess. 4 refers to a "pre-trib" rapture, although the term “rapture” is to be used very loosely here, since it happens on “the last day”. No one will be “Left Behind”. The Great Tribulation is over. It happened within the Apostle's generation, just like Jesus said it would (Matthew 24:21, 34).

It's funny that you say "No one will be left behind" only one sentance before referencing Matthew 24 which states: "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." What then does that describe besides someone being "left behind?" Where does this passage fit in for you?

Also Matthew 24 says "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." How could the gospel be shared among all nations in much less than 70 years?

Also it says "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." This obviously describes the worst period persecution in the timeline of the world. Yet wouldn't you say that the holocaust was much worse than 70AD? Other events too, I would say do equal 70AD. The flood comes to mind - I mean, the entire world was wiped out. The only way it could be worse is if a large portion of a larger world is destroyed - what I claim is yet to come.

And finally, Matthew 24 states: "Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

It says "immediately after, the Son of Man will return." And the elect will be gathered. So then do you believe that this is yet to come? You're claiming that "immediately after" means "give or take 2000 years?" If so that's ok, I just want to clarify what you believe.

[puritan lad]

It's funny that you say "No one will be left behind" only one sentance before referencing Matthew 24 which states: "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." What then does that describe besides someone being "left behind?" Where does this passage fit in for you?

The Olivet Discourse says nothing about a "rapture". When Titus and the Roman Army invaded Jerusalem in 70 AD, some of the citizens were taken (captive) and some were left (killed). Read Josephus — Wars 6.9.3 to verify first Century Fulfillment.

Also Matthew 24 says "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." How could the gospel be shared among all nations in much less than 70 years?

The term "World" almost always used in a limited sense (See Luke 2:1). In both these cases, the term is used only to refer to the Roman Empire.

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

First Century Fulfillment:

Romans 1:8
“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Colossians 1:6
“Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:”

Colossians 1:23
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Also it says "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." This obviously describes the worst period persecution in the timeline of the world. Yet wouldn't you say that the holocaust was much worse than 70AD? Other events too, I would say do equal 70AD. The flood comes to mind - I mean, the entire world was wiped out. The only way it could be worse is if a large portion of a larger world is destroyed - what I claim is yet to come.

From a pure numerical standpoint, you would be correct. In that case, the tribulation could not be the worst ever because the flood, like you mentioned, killed just about everyone. However, as far as the Jewish Disciples were concerned, this would be the worst. 70 AD wasn't just the destruction of another city. It was the wrath of God poured out on that "wicked and adulterous generation". God poured out all the curses of the Covenant (Deut. 28:14-68), because they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23:35). The kingdom was taken from them and given to the Church (Matthew 21:43). The fig tree was cursed, so that it would never bear fruit again". (Matthew 21:19)

It says "immediately after, the Son of Man will return." And the elect will be gathered. So then do you believe that this is yet to come? You're claiming that "immediately after" means "give or take 2000 years?" If so that's ok, I just want to clarify what you believe.

We now get into some apocalyptic language and need to refer to the Old Testament. The darkening of heavenly bodies has always represented the fall of a kingdom. (A Hebrew would understand this very clearly). Consider Isaiah's prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon in Isaiah Chapter 13.

Isaiah 13:10
“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”

Joel uses similar language in his prophecy concerning the Day of Pentecost (Joel 2:28-32).

First Century Fulfillment:

At least one fulfillment of this prophecy took place, according to Peter, on the Day of Pentecost

Acts 2:16-21
“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Matthew 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

More apocalyptic language. This is not about Christ's Second Coming, but His “coming on the clouds, an Old Testament symbol of judgement. Ex. In Isaiah's prophecy against Egypt, “the Lord rides on a swift cloud”. (Isaiah 19:1) Yet Egypt was destroyed by Sargon, the king of Assyria (Isaiah 20:1-6), not by a literal appearance of the Lord.

Matthew 24:31
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Obeying Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-24, The Jewish Christians fled to Mt. Pella in Decapolis.

First Century Fulfillment:

“As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what he said, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for every small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased.”— (Josephus - Wars 5:10:1)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” — (Eusebius - History of the Church 3:5:3)

In short, all of Jesus' Olivet Discourse was fulfilled within that generation. There is simply no getting around what Jesus clearly stated in verse 34.

Hope this helps a little.

[bizzt]

And finally to Bizzt, I think that 1 Thes 4 does tie the rapture and the resurrection together. They are not completely unrelated as you just suggested.

I don't remember even talking about 1 Thes 4. I know in 1 Cor it is not talking about the Rapture.

1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Thes 4
I believe this may talk about the Rapture as when the Resurrection takes place according to Revelations the New Jerusalem will come down to Earth. Now if this is true why would we be caught up? I might have to read through my last posts to see if I did talk about that.

If I did I apologize

[bizzt]

Peter never said such a thing. There was no resurection in 70ad. That idea isn't Biblical. There will be a resurection but not until Isreal returns to its homeland and the exact opposite happpened in 70ad.

Sorry Re-reading over some things here

After Puritan Responded to Wayne about the Moon turning to Blood I decided to finally look up the Scriptural Reference. Peter talks about the day of Pentecost in
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Puritan Indeed Peter talked about the Moon into Blood but he was not talking about the Tribulation. AND if he was why did he repeat the Prophesy in Joel? When was the Great and Notable day of the Lord?

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this particular Passage.

[puritan lad]

Puritan Indeed Peter talked about the Moon into Blood but he was not talking about the Tribulation. AND if he was why did he repeat the Prophesy in Joel? When was the Great and Notable day of the Lord?

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this particular Passage.

Peter was not talking about the tribulation, but he was talking about a first century event, the Day of Pentecost. The prophecy was repeated by Peter as a matter of it's fulfillment. Peter writes, "This (The Holy Spirit Baptism) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel..." and then proceeds to quote the entire prophecy. The point is that this entire prophecy, according to Peter, was fulfilled on that Day, including the "signs in the heavens". It was this day that Old Covenant Judaism ceased to be a worthwhile atonement. When the Jewish people cried out, "“His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25), it was then that their desolation was determined (Dan. 9:27).

As far as it's relationship to the Olivet Discourse, there is no need to assume that everything in it was fulfilled during a tribulation period, only that all of these things, including the tribulation, would be fulfilled withing the Apostles' generation. (Matthew 24:34)