When Did Adam Live?

[JLAfan2001]

Even if you want to believe Genesis is wrong.Evolution is wrong also and yet you believe it by faith.You believe man over God which is quite dumb to do.Man has been wrong so many times in history about what he thought was true only to be shown wrong eventually and this applies to both believers and non-believers then over time God's word comes along and proves man wrong and his word true.Man cannot be trusted over God to tell the truth,man is sinful,prideful,lies and is led around and controlled and even corrupted by money so that it is dumb to believe anything man says is true over God and his word.You believe the historical account based on evolution but it cannot even be proven true and could be totally wrong.Yes,its a shocker but true.Science does not do proof yet you put your faith in what man says is true when he cannot prove it.

First of all none of this actually addresses what I said. Second, once again, there is a mountain of evidence for evolution. Do you honestly believe that thousands of scientists across several scientific disciplines collecting data for the last 150 years are completely wrong but a bunch of desert nomads from the bronze age with no concept of science got it right? Of course you will appeal to divine revelation in which case I ask where is the evidence that god spoke directly to these guys and showed them the truth that contradicts all the evidence that we collected.

How can any of us, yourself included, change what we believe if we are determined products of our physical environment?
Unless of course, you believe something other in which case I'd love to hear your views here.

Otherwise, your call for people here to change rather than just accept people here are just determined to believe this or that...
such seems kind of meaningless and pointless.

This doesn't address what I said either. I tried to show you how science and the bible are incompatible and how this debate is evidence of that. You respond by trying to get my attention off topic. I call for an appeal to honesty and you deflect.

[RickD]

JLA wrote:
Btw, I'm not here to make friends. Just to point out that christians are wrong in their beliefs.

Then I suggest you go find somewhere else to preach. Your statement, and your reason for being here is against forum rules.

But since I feel like being nice, I'm going to give you one more chance. I'm imposing a 1 week ban for you. What happens next is up to you. You can come back with a different attitude, or you can continue to try to change our minds.

While you are unable to post for a week, I suggest that you read over the board guidelines that you agreed to follow when you joined this forum.

Good day.

Since I gave you a warning, and you still persist in going against the forum guidelines, with your post here:

I really don't understand why none of you can see the mental hoops you are jumping through to reconcile the bible and science/history. You guys keep debating adam & eve, garden of eden, local or global flood etc. and none of the points you have all come up with tie well together. Each point has an issue which then raises another issue and that leads to a problem. The answer to all this is the bible is WRONG. It needs to be left behind as myth and no longer taken as history of any kind. Population genetics, anthropology, geology, archaeology, history all show genesis as false. Please do yourselves a favor and just end it. Just do the honest thing and admit the bible was wrong. Then you can all get on living your lives instead of wrestling with these pointless questions.

Goodbye. You have made your decision to not adhere to the forum guidelines that you agreed to when you joined the forum.
And, if anyone has any questions or issues regarding this ban, please keep it off the forum, and pm me.

[DBowling]

Let me expand a little on my answer to Rick, because my response doesn't do a good job differentiating between physical death and spiritual death. And I do think that distinction is key to understanding what Paul is discussing in Romans 5.

DBowling,

If Adam wasn't the first human as you say, and other humans lived in other parts of the globe, before Adam, how do you explain sin being the cause of mankind's death?

I would refer to exactly the same passage you do, Romans 5:12.

Again we need to differentiate between what Paul says and what he doesn't.
Paul (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) says that

through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Note that Paul does not mention the transmission mechanism.
It was Augustine who promoted the human procreation model that most of us have grown up with.
Now Augustine is one of my personal heroes of the faith, but the Augustinian model for the transmission of original sin via procreation is not actually found in Scripture, so it falls under the category of extraScriptural tradition.

So based on Scripture I can confidently assert that
"through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"
But since Scripture is silent on the transmission mechanism for 'original sin' I can't speak to the 'how' or transmission mechanism with any confidence.
I'm still currently trying to work through that issue myself.

There are a number of reasons that I believe that the death Paul refers to in Romans 5:12 is spiritual death.
1. Scripture indicates that human physical death existed before the Fall. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 explicitly tells us that Adam's earthy body was a mortal perishable body. The presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 also shows that God was providing Adam and Eve with a remedy to mankind's inherent physical mortality prior to the Fall in Genesis 3.
2. Genesis 2:17 indicates that the 'death' caused by the Fall was not physical death. God said "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.". If the death that God was referring to was physical death then Adam and Eve would not have continued to live physically for hundreds of years after the Fall. Genesis 3 demonstrates that the death that immediately occurred as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience was the destruction of their relationship with God, ie spiritual death.

So from 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 5 and Genesis 2-3 we can come to the following conclusions.
1. Mankind was mortal prior to the Fall.
2. The death that entered the world and passed among all mankind as a result of the Fall was spiritual death.

If others lived and presumably died before Adam was created, their death wasn't a result of original sin, right?

correct

As I note above the human death that occurred prior to the Fall was physical death. The Tree of Life in the Garden was God's remedy for human physical death. When Adam and Eve sinned mankind no longer had access to God's remedy for physical death.

So, why would others, outside the line of Adam, need a redeemer?

because all mankind has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12 tells us that when Adam sinned spiritual death passed upon all men.
Romans 3:23 tells us that all mankind has sinned.
Romans 6:26 tells us that the wages of sin is death
And that's pretty depressing news for mankind

But fortunately for mankind the story doesn't end there, and the 'rest of the story' is incredibly awesome news!
John 3:16 tells us

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

In Christ

[RickD]

DBowling,

Thanks for further clarification.

DBowling wrote:
There are a number of reasons that I believe that the death Paul refers to in Romans 5:12 is spiritual death.
1. Scripture indicates that human physical death existed before the Fall. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 explicitly tells us that Adam's earthy body was a mortal perishable body. The presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 also shows that God was providing Adam and Eve with a remedy to mankind's inherent physical mortality prior to the Fall in Genesis 3.

I think you assume human physical death existed before the fall, because you assume there were other humans alive before A&E.

I'd say that although Adam had a perishable body, that doesn't necessarily mean that physical human death existed. If Adam and Eve were the only 2 people alive at one point, and God sustained them physically, by their eating of the tree of life, then that would mean that physical human death didn't have to exist.

2. Genesis 2:17 indicates that the 'death' caused by the Fall was not physical death. God said "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.". If the death that God was referring to was physical death then Adam and Eve would not have continued to live physically for hundreds of years after the Fall. Genesis 3 demonstrates that the death that immediately occurred as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience was the destruction of their relationship with God, ie spiritual death.

I don't think that logically follows. On the day Adam sinned, God took away Adam's access to the tree of life. So, on that day, Adam began to die physically. Or, Adam was physically and spiritually dead on the day Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

If you are going to make a persuasive argument TO ME, about other humans being alive before Adam and Eve, I think you'll need to address the sin issue. You already said that the others died physically, but their death wasn't from sin. Did the others not sin?

If they didn't sin, why would they need a redeemer?


And, if there were others alive outside the flood area, the flood wouldn't have affected them. How would you explain God not punishing them for their sin? Unless they didn't sin. But then you'd have a bigger issue.

I'm not going to say I'm discounting your argument. I just think you need to address these things.

[DBowling]

Rick,

Thanks for the dialogue.
This is exactly the kind of interaction that I was looking for to help me work through the implications of my OP.

DBowling wrote:
There are a number of reasons that I believe that the death Paul refers to in Romans 5:12 is spiritual death.
1. Scripture indicates that human physical death existed before the Fall. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 explicitly tells us that Adam's earthy body was a mortal perishable body. The presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 also shows that God was providing Adam and Eve with a remedy to mankind's inherent physical mortality prior to the Fall in Genesis 3.

I think you assume human physical death existed before the fall, because you assume there were other humans alive before A&E.

I assume that human physical death existed before the Fall, because of what Scripture says in Genesis 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 above.
I assume that humanity and human physical death existed beyond just Adam and Eve because history and anthropology clearly show that humans existed and had populated the whole globe 15,000 years before the 6000 BC timeframe where both Scripture and Mesopotamian history/legend place the historical Adam.

And since Scripture never states that Adam and Eve were the genetic progenitors of all mankind, then it is legitimate to comtrast the historical accuracy of the extraScriptural tradition that Adam and Eve are the genetic progenitors of all mankind with the extraScriptural historical data that indicates that mankind existed for tens of thousands (maybe up to 200,000) years prior to the Biblical/historical timeframe for the historical Adam.

If you are going to make a persuasive argument TO ME, about other humans being alive before Adam and Eve, I think you'll need to address the sin issue. You already said that the others died physically, but their death wasn't from sin. Did the others not sin?

I'm not sure I am able to make an argument that would be persuasive to you about the spiritual state of man prior to the fall because Scripture doesn't have much to say about it, and I'm currently working through those issues.

Here's what I've been able to put together from Scripture so far.
1. Prior to the Fall mankind was an image bearer of God (Genesis 1:26-27)
2. Prior to the Fall mankind was physically mortal (1 Corinthians 15:42-49)
3. At the time of the Fall, man's eyes were opened (Genesis 3:7)
4. This 'opening of eyes'' evidently included the knowledge of both good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
5. At the time of the Fall spiritual death passed among all men (Romans 5:12)

The verses that immediately follow Romans 5:12 are very interesting and appear to have direct relevance to this topic. I just haven't quite figured out how in my mind yet.
Romans 5:13-14

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

And then there's this from Paul's sermon at Mars Hill (Acts 17:30)

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

That's the Scriptural data that I'm looking at, but I haven't put it together in a model that I feel comfortable with yet.

And, if there were others alive outside the flood area, the flood wouldn't have affected them. How would you explain God not punishing them for their sin?

This is a very different situation from humanity prior to Adam.
At the time of Noah spiritual death had passed to all mankind.
The reason all of humanity wasn't punished for their sin is very simple, the grace of God. This is the very same reason that sinful mankind is alive today. All of mankind are image bearers of God, and it is God's desire that all men should be saved.

As I mentioned earlier the specific target of Noah's Flood were God's chosen people (the descendants of Adam) who had rebelled against God and the sinful culture that they had been corrupted by.
Again the only human population that Scripture claims was punished and destroyed by the Flood was all mankind who were dwelling 'in the land'. 'In the land' is the very same scope that Scripture uses to define the geographical extent of the Flood.

I'm not going to say I'm discounting your argument. I just think you need to address these things.

Hopefully this addresses at least some of the issues you brought up.

In Christ

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
Rick,

Thanks for the dialogue.
This is exactly the kind of interaction that I was looking for to help me work through the implications of my OP.

Sure. I think you bring up some interesting points. I'd like to see where it goes.

I assume that human physical death existed before the Fall, because of what Scripture says in Genesis 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 above.
I assume that humanity and human physical death existed beyond just Adam and Eve because history and anthropology clearly show that humans existed and had populated the whole globe 15,000 years before the 6000 BC timeframe where both Scripture and Mesopotamian history/legend place the historical Adam.

I'm familiar with, and disagree with the literal genealogy time frame that puts Adam back around 6000 BC. But, since I'm not familiar with Mesopotamian legend, could you post a link to what you are referring?

And since Scripture never states that Adam and Eve were the genetic progenitors of all mankind, then it is legitimate to comtrast the historical accuracy of the extraScriptural tradition that Adam and Eve are the genetic progenitors of all mankind with the extraScriptural historical data that indicates that mankind existed for tens of thousands (maybe up to 200,000) years prior to the Biblical/historical timeframe for the historical Adam.

Then how do you understand Genesis 3:20?
Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.


And,
1 Corinthians 15:45?
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

I guess you take this to mean that Adam wasn't the first man to exist, but he was the first man in the line of the ancestry of Christ?

Here's what I've been able to put together from Scripture so far.
1. Prior to the Fall mankind was an image bearer of God (Genesis 1:26-27)

Ok. If these other humans, outside the line of Adam were image bearers, were they endowed with a spirit, as Adam was? Or in other words, is the spiritual aspect part of being an image bearer?

2. Prior to the Fall mankind was physically mortal (1 Corinthians 15:42-49)

Don't necessarily have a disagreement with that. As I believe Adam was mortal, only sustained physically by the tree of life.

3. At the time of the Fall, man's eyes were opened (Genesis 3:7)

No disagreement on that.

4. This 'opening of eyes'' evidently included the knowledge of both good and evil (Genesis 3:22)

Yup.

5. At the time of the Fall spiritual death passed among all men (Romans 5:12)

Then I guess that answers my question above, about the other humans being spiritual. Which I'd have to logically then ask...If The other humans outside of the line of Adam to Christ are spiritual, did they know right from wrong? Had THEY ever sinned(chose to go against their conscience)?

[DBowling]

I assume that human physical death existed before the Fall, because of what Scripture says in Genesis 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 above.
I assume that humanity and human physical death existed beyond just Adam and Eve because history and anthropology clearly show that humans existed and had populated the whole globe 15,000 years before the 6000 BC timeframe where both Scripture and Mesopotamian history/legend place the historical Adam.

I'm familiar with, and disagree with the literal genealogy time frame that puts Adam back around 6000 BC. But, since I'm not familiar with Mesopotamian legend, could you post a link to what you are referring?

The Mesopotamian historical evidence regarding a historical Adam is something relatively new to me.
I first encountered this information when I read LEGEND - THE GENESIS OF CIVILISATION by secular historian David Rohl. The thing that amazed me with this book was that the Sumerian/Egyptian/Babylonian historical data led a secular historian to conclude that a historical Adam lived in a historical Eden between 5000 BC and 6000 BC.

I then searched to see if any Christians had come to the same conclusion regarding a historical Adam, and my search led me to a book and web site by Richard Fischer. I watched all of Fischer's youtube videos regarding the historicity of Genesis, and I found much of his data persuasive. Fischer uses much of the same historical data as David Rohl and even though their conclusions differ in a number of cases, I found it very significant that a secular historian and a Christian historian/theologian would come to general consensus that a historical Adam lived in a historical Eden in Mesopotamia during the timeframe laid out in the Biblical narrative.

Fischer's website with a link to his youtube videos can be found here
http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/

And since Scripture never states that Adam and Eve were the genetic progenitors of all mankind, then it is legitimate to comtrast the historical accuracy of the extraScriptural tradition that Adam and Eve are the genetic progenitors of all mankind with the extraScriptural historical data that indicates that mankind existed for tens of thousands (maybe up to 200,000) years prior to the Biblical/historical timeframe for the historical Adam.

Then how do you understand Genesis 3:20?
Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

Copy/Paste...

OK... let's see how Genesis uses this type of language just one chapter later to see if Genesis 3:20 is really claiming that Eve was the genetic progenitor of all humans.

In Genesis 4:20 Jabal is referred to as the "father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock".
Does this mean that Jabal is the genetic progenitor of all those who dwell in tents and have livestock?

In Genesis 4:21 Jubal is referred to as the "father of all those who play the lyre and pipe".
Does this mean that Jubal is the genetic progenitor of all those who play the lyre and pipe?

Understand that it is unlikely that any of Jabal's or Jubal's descendants survived Noah's Flood and Genesis was written after the Flood, so within the context of Genesis 3 and 4 this type of language ("father of...", "mother of...") cannot be be limited to meaning "genetic progenitor of...".

...

It's one thing to denonstrate that "father of..." and "mother of..." does not necessarily mean "genetic progenitor of..." within the context of Genesis 3-4.
The question I didn't address was what does "mother of all living" mean then.

First let's look at the context of Adam and Eve in the Garden in Genesis 2-3.
The Garden is the place where God has chosen to dwell on the earth after he created and populated the earth in Genesis 1.
God has chosen the historical Adam and Eve to dwell in His presence in the Garden.
I believe this establishes Adam and Eve as achetypal representatives of mankind in the presence of God in the Garden.

I believe their names describe their representative roles.
Adam means "mankind", therefore Adam was the archetypal representative of all mankind before God in the Garden.
Eve means "giver of life" (love that name... we named our daughter Eve), therefore Eve was the archetypal representative of all women/mothers before God in the Garden.
Their relationship was also archetypal of God's design for the fundamental building block of human culture... marriage and the family.

One additional comment here... when I use the term archetypal representative I am not saying that Adam and Eve weren't historical people. I absolutely believe that Adam and Eve were historical people and Genesis 2 and 3 accurately represents what happened in history to Adam and Eve.

When I use the term archetypal representative I am saying that they served as representatives for all humanity when they served in Garden of Eden, which was the place on earth that God chose to dwell with mankind. I see their representative role for humanity as similar to the representative role that the Levitical Priesthood exercised for the Israelites in the Tabernacle and Temple.

1 Corinthians 15:45?
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

I guess you take this to mean that Adam wasn't the first man to exist, but he was the first man in the line of the ancestry of Christ?

I take it to mean that Adam was the first man to have a spiritual relationship with God.
And yes he was the first in the line of God's chosen people who were tasked with bringing the truth of God to all mankind. And of course the consummation of this task is found in the 'last' Adam, Jesus Christ, who conquered sin and death through his death and resurrection.

Here's what I've been able to put together from Scripture so far.
1. Prior to the Fall mankind was an image bearer of God (Genesis 1:26-27)

Ok. If these other humans, outside the line of Adam were image bearers, were they endowed with a spirit, as Adam was? Or in other words, is the spiritual aspect part of being an image bearer?

I personally believe that part of being an image bearer of God involves being endowed with a spirit.

5. At the time of the Fall spiritual death passed among all men (Romans 5:12)

Then I guess that answers my question above, about the other humans being spiritual. Which I'd have to logically then ask...If The other humans outside of the line of Adam to Christ are spiritual, did they know right from wrong? Had THEY ever sinned(chose to go against their conscience)?

Personal opinion...
Prior to the Fall I do not believe mankind knew right from wrong.
When Adam sinned I believe that the eyes of mankind were opened to know good and evil, and because of the sin of Adam that knowledge resulted in spiritual death for all mankind.

In Christ

[crochet1949]

People Could have lived physically for ever. God told them that they Would die -- just not that moment. But eventually -- in their cases just short of 1,000 years -- they Would die.

The closest We will ever come to the Garden of Eden conditions will be the earthly millennial reign of Christ right here on earth. Cause at That time -- Satan will be bound in the pit during that time. Peacefullness will be here. Believer will be reigning with Him.

An interesting thought. If only they Had obeyed God -- but, alas, they didn't. But God did provide a solution for us.