Allegiance to God or The State? Heavenly vs. Earthly Authority

[Philip]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /71635794/

What would YOU have done?

Where is this all going?

Are pastors and churches next - arrested for not complying with state or federal law?

I found this interesting, concerning the legal registration of ministers in various states: http://www.nacministers.com/licensed-vs-ordained-min

Huckabee commented: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/09/ ... kim-davis/

[RickD]

I guess the simple solution would be to resign her position. If what she claims is true, that she cannot issue same sex marriage licenses because it goes against her conscience, then I'd think her only choice would be to resign.

And I'm curious, has she refused to grant marriage licenses to people who have been divorced before? Or is she only against homosexual marriage? Because scripturally, it's sinful to get a divorce, then remarry. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd guess that she never refused marriage licenses to divorced people who want to remarry.

I don't know...it seems too simple to me. If I had a job that required me to do something against my conscience, and I couldn't do it, I'd quit. But then again, where else is she going to get a job with an $80k salary?

The law says it's legal for same sex couples to marry in the eyes of the state. Isn't her job as a clerk to comply with her state's laws?

My guess is that she won't want to go to jail, she'll cave, and keep her cushy $80k a year job.

[Philip]

Some good questions, Rick. One thing, I don't think it's realistic for her to know the details and marital/divorce history/circumstances of every couple requesting a marriage license. However, when Adam and Steve request one - well, I think she well knows the situation. Yep, she should probably just resign. Apparently, she hasn't been a Christian a long time - is remarried/again to her present husband, but it's her 4th marriage (the rainbow supporters are all having a big time with THAT!). But I think the whole thing could be solved if we we divorce the state from regulation of marriage. But, of course, the secularists and those with sexual/anti-Christian agendas see the courts as their avenue of legitimization, and to financially drag Christians, ministers and churches into financial bankruptcy through lawsuits, etc.

Of course, this lady should realize that the majority of people requesting marriage licenses are not Christians - meaning, these are not spiritual unions ordained by God that the State is rubberstamping approval of. Again, the state could just deem homosexual "marriages" as civil unions, albeit with all of the rights of those married. But that's not gonna satisfy the agenda-driven mob, is it?

[RickD]

Philip wrote:
Are pastors and churches next - arrested for not complying with state or federal law?

Philip,

Could you explain why you're making the jump from a clerk, who is employed by the county, who refuses to obey the laws of her county, being prosecuted, to pastors being arrested? I don't see the correlation.

[RickD]

Philip wrote:

Of course, this lady should realize that the majority of people requesting marriage licenses are not Christians - meaning, these are not spiritual unions ordained by God that the State is rubberstamping approval of. Again, the state could just deem homosexual "marriages" as civil unions, albeit with all of the rights of those married. But that's not gonna satisfy the agenda-driven mob, is it?

I think that point is extremely relevant. She's granting a state ordained licence. She's not saying that she's approving their "marriage" in God's eyes. She can't see the difference.


If she were a pastor of a church, not a govt. employee, and she was forced against her conscience, to perform a same sex marriage before God, then I'd see her having a legitimate issue. As it stands, I think she's just picking the wrong fight.

I think the real issue is if following her conscience will be more important than her income. If she truly is convinced issuing same sex marriage licenses is against her conscience, is it important enough for her to give up an $80k salary?

[Philip]

Philip, Could you explain why you're making the jump from a clerk, who is employed by the county, who refuses to obey the laws of her county, being prosecuted, to pastors being arrested? I don't see the correlation.

Because some states regulate pastors/ministers, you can bet that many will eventually be challenged as they are providing a public service that is refused to a certain segment of society. The court in the county clerk case has already ruled that personal religious conscience is no defense against not performing what is perceived to be a equally discharged public duty. It's not a stretch to see where this is ultimately going; it would be naive to not see it. It all has to do with how certain judges perceive the entanglements and duties of clergy as regulated by the state. No question that the gay agenda crowd will seek out every potential to legally challenge and attack where and how they can. You never know how some judge might look at individual statutes. And what might the Supremes have brought before them?

Take a peak by state: http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/un ... uirements/

[RickD]

Or, one can be a pastor who marries without obtaining a state marriage license.
http://www.mercyseat.net/marriagelicense.html

[Philip]

Or, one can be a pastor who marries without obtaining a state marriage license.
http://www.mercyseat.net/marriagelicense.html

And thus my somewhat tongue-in-cheek post from awhile back, that I might have to consider divorce (in the eyes of the STATE). Really, why should the state have any say so of who can marry a couple? Or have ANY jurisdiction over ANY type of legal human union?

[melanie]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /71635794/

What would YOU have done?

Where is this all going?

Are pastors and churches next - arrested for not complying with state or federal law?

I found this interesting, concerning the legal registration of ministers in various states: http://www.nacministers.com/licensed-vs-ordained-min

Huckabee commented: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/09/ ... kim-davis/

Australia will take this issue to referendum after the next election. I have no doubt that it will pass. At least what ever backlash entails, it will be known the decision came down to what the Australian public wanted by majority. After all this is a democratic country and our laws should reflect the people.

Now as for the notion that Pastors will be next on the list to be forced to go against their religious beliefs, I just don't see that happening. I also sincerely hope that it doesn't.
I am no expert on US law, but I have looked into the legal ramifications and what precedents there are for thinking that the new the marriage equality act will impact churches and pastors in this way.
Religious freedoms under the U.S. Constitution allows churches to set rules for membership and practices. They are protected under the First Amendment, giving Pastors freedom to marry who they choose.
This right has been exercised with the Catholic Church refusing to marry any divorcee unless the marriage has been unulled by the church, some churches and pastors refuse to marry divorcees at all, While this is uncommon, it is within their rights to do so. Quite shockingly when I looked into this there are churches and pastors that refuse to marry interracial couples.
It is within their legal right to do so, under the First Amendment.
So if there are pastors across the U.S. who legally refuse to marry couples based on their beliefs without legal ramifications then why would it be any different in homosexual cases.
It has been legal to marry the same sex in some states in the U.S. for some time, and there has been no precedent set where a pastor has been criminally charged for refusal to marry gays. I found 1 case in Idaho where the church was renting out the chapel as a business, and they refused to allow a gay marriage to take place but when they made the decision to run their Chapel as a business and not solely a place of worship they were accountable under different law.

We need to remember that whilst many Christians feel very strongly that gay marriage goes against their religious beliefs the motivating factor for homosexuals both here and in the U.S. to seek out marriage equality is not to peeve off the Church. They didn't get together and think now how we are we going to cause controversy and anger within the Christian community.
Their motivation is love. Followed by the legal safeguards for long term couples who are buying property, businesses and raising children. But the biggest motivating factor is love. We can argue that this love is unnatural and goes against God but that is not the point I'm trying to make, which is what is motivating the marriage equality debate on the side of gay people.
I have family members and friends who are gay. Some of them in long term relationships and also raising children.
They want to get married for the same you reason you or I would want too, they are inlove.
The reason I am bringing this up is because of this idea that is being so strongly pushed within the church that pastors will be forced to marry gay couples.
Have you asked yourself, why would a couple who is getting married in front of family and friends, as an expression of their love chose to go to a church and demand a pastor to marry them who thinks that their union and love is an abomination to God.
They wouldn't.
They want to enjoy their day and have a positive memory to look back on.
This idea that pastors will be forced to be start marrying all these gay couples just doesn't make logical sense.
Unless one has brought into the idea that these people are church hating, vindictive people who would sacrifice the pleasure of their day of marraige to stick it up the church.
The are not the enemy that they have been made out to be.
I have personally spoken to people and read accounts of homosexuals who all say that all they wanted was the right to get married. They would never turn around and strip the church of their rights and take away their religious freedom. You live your life how you chose and allow us to do the same.

Only time will tell how this plays out.
I don't think Pastors will be forced to marry homosexuals. They certainly shouldn't be. And most gay people would actually agree.

[RickD]

The more I read about this subject, the stronger I feel that Kim Davis is picking the wrong fight. She is not in jail because she's being persecuted for her beliefs. She's in jail because she refuses to do the job she took an oath to do. She took an oath to uphold the laws of a secular government. If she can't uphold her oath, and do the job she's getting paid for, she needs to resign.

[Philip]

Yes, she should probably resign. She sure can't have it both ways - the courts will make certain of that!

[abelcainsbrother]

I don't know if it will be because of gay marriages however Jesus said in Luke 21:12 "But before all these,they shall lay their hands on you,and persecute you,delivering you up to the synagogues,and into prisons,being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake." Is this what this woman is dealing with? And could it extend to Pastor's eventually?

[melanie]

Abel in Luke 21:12 Jesus is speaking to the Disicples about their upcoming fate.
"But before all these..."
He is talking about the trials that would face the Disiples after His departure. And that is what happened, they were brought to trail, put in jail and killed.
In saying that scripture also tells us that Christians will face persecution.

[abelcainsbrother]

Abel in Luke 21:12 Jesus is speaking to the Disicples about their upcoming fate.
"But before all these..."
He is talking about the trials that would face the Disiples after His departure. And that is what happened, they were brought to trail, put in jail and killed.
In saying that scripture also tells us that Christians will face persecution.

Are you saying it is a double prophecy where it applied to the disciples but also us today too?Or, are you saying it already happened to the disciples but Christians will face persecution today too based on what other scriptures say?

[theophilus]

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
(Romans 13:1-2 ESV)

Since governments are established by God one of the ways we submit to God's authority is to submit to the authority of our governments. But we need to keep in mind the purpose of government authority.

He is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Romans 13:4 ESV)

When a government goes beyond its God-given authority to punish evil and requires things that are contrary to God's laws we must refuse to obey those specific commands and obey God instead.