Rob Bell AFTER Hell

[Philip]

For those of you familiar with former Mars Hill pastor Rob Bell, who wrote "Love Wins," in which he denies classical Christian views and teachings on Hell, I thought I'd share what he's been up to. VERY revealing interview with the Washington Blade - linked from Christianitytoday.com: http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/07/ ... -rob-bell/

Once one abandons clear Biblical teachings on Hell and God's justice, it's a short slide into embracing many heresies and outright mysticism - which Bell has done. Is it any shock that he (post-Mars Hill) partnered with Oprah Winfrey? In the linked article, he almost sounds like Timothy Leary, except for his fondness for "Christian" Universalist beliefs. Yes, the Bible's teachings on Hell ARE very disturbing, but - and as I've said many times - one can't reasonably/logically cherrypick ONLY the Scriptures we feel comfortable with to believe in. Yet, many do.

[Nessa]

I find bell interesting, captivating but dangerous. He's a snake charming the people instead of being charmed himself. And the people are moving to his tune. He manipulates minds. He puts fourth ideas that appeal to a vast majority. But yeah his stuff is crap.

[Storyteller]

Am going to read the link in a minute, I read Love Wins a few years ago, before I became a Christian, and if I`m honest it was one of the books that led me to Christ. I didn`t agree with a lot of what he wrote but there was enough in there to get me really, really curious about differing opinions and perspectives of God.

[Storyteller]

Okay, read it.

Well, I like that he is trying to tie in science and faith, that`s a good thing, right?

"Billions and billions are going to be tormented in a conscious hell for not believing in somebody they never heard about" Not so sure I agree with this statement. Do we know that those who haven`t heard of Christ are condemned?


It`s funny, when I read Love Wins, I actually liked the book, it got me thinking, changed my view on faith yet reading that article, there is a lot that I don`t agree with. I wonder what I`d make of Love Wins now? Whether I`d still find some stuff in it that I relate to?

[Philip]

Story: Well, I like that he is trying to tie in science and faith, that`s a good thing, right?

Yes, realizing that faith and science (where we understand them correctly) DO re-enforce each other.

Story: "Billions and billions are going to be tormented in a conscious hell for not believing in somebody they never heard about" Not so sure I agree with this statement. Do we know that those who haven`t heard of Christ are condemned?

Story, you do realize that ALL people, no matter where they live, no matter how remote, no matter that they have not heard the Gospel of Christ, CAN indeed reject God, do you not? Romans makes it clear that they are not punished for what they DON'T know about Christ, but what they DO know from God's general revelation about Himself (that He exists and He provides). He makes it clear that ALL people know of Him because He's ALREADY made them aware of His presence, Creation of the world, and provision. The route to God and Heaven IS exclusively and ONLY through faith in Jesus. See my post on this at the bottom of this page: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 52#p171152

Note, ONLY Christians will be in Heaven - and ALL of them have heard the Gospel. While all who do not go to Heaven will be separated from God for an eternity, the punishments will be individually tailored to how they lived their lives and as to what they DID know: http://www.gotquestions.org/levels-hell.html

See, Rob Bell is a universalist - he believes that most, if not all, will eventually submit to Christ and spend eternity with God. But this is clearly NOT what the Bible teaches. First, we know there is a Hell: Daniel 12:2; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; Revelation 20 and 21 - especially 20:11-15; Luke 13:22-30; Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 5.

And the way to Heaven and God is ONLY through belief in Christ - not through ANY other religious tradition/belief/faith, etc.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

Lastly, post Jesus teaching, ministry and Resurrection, we have NOT ONE Biblical example of ANYONE ever being saved without FIRST hearing and positively responding to the Gospel message (having a faith in and commitment to following Jesus).

Bell rejects all that I've asserted above, mostly, because He finds the classical Christian teachings on these things to be in error, too harsh, not what one would expect of a God who loved and died for ALL. His REAL problem is that he refused to believe what the Bible VERY plainly teaches, from Jesus to the Apostles, they are all in agreement.

[Storyteller]

I appreciate all that philip, thank you

When I said about those who hadn't heard of Christ, I kinda meant those that don't reject what they DO know. What I mean, I guess, is I cant see God placing someone who would accept Christ in a situation where thats not possible.

I used to think that God plans for ALL of His flock to return to Him, now I'm not so sure. I think I liked to think that because I care, I really don't want anyone to choose Hell but it IS a choice.

[Philip]

Story: I used to think that God plans for ALL of His flock to return to Him

Story, what do you mean by the words in bold?

[Storyteller]

Story: I used to think that God plans for ALL of His flock to return to Him

Story, what do you mean by the words in bold?

'digs hole'

Okay, I used to think that Gods plan was for every living soul, past, present and future, to come to Him. That that would be the Kingdom of Heaven.
I used to cry for God. How does he bear it? Losing his children like that? So, I used to think that, eventually, everybody would find their way home to God.

[Philip]

Story, as far as Hell is concerned, GOD doesn't put them there - THEY put themselves there, by rejecting Him. Of course, people don't want the eternal punishment of Hell, and they would love to enjoy the joyous aspects of Heaven, But they don't want the LORD - THE focus and most joyous aspect of Heaven - nor do they want to submit to and follow Him. So, God will give them EXACTLY what they want (at least, if they don't want HIM, then He doesn't want THEM in Heaven - as no rebels will be found or allowed there!). Of course, God's justice also demands that they not get ALL they want (to avoid Him, yet WITHOUT incurring His penalty for that avoidance).

[Storyteller]

Story, as far as Hell is concerned, GOD doesn't put them there - THEY put themselves there, by rejecting Him. Of course, people don't want the eternal punishment of Hell, and they would love to enjoy the joyous aspects of Heaven, But they don't want the LORD - THE focus and most joyous aspect of Heaven - nor do they want to submit to and follow Him. So, God will give them EXACTLY what they want (at least, if they don't want HIM, then He doesn't want THEM in Heaven - as no rebels will be found or allowed there!). Of course, God's justice also demands that they not get ALL they want (to avoid Him, yet WITHOUT incurring His penalty for that avoidance).

I know, and it breaks my heart.

Why does anyone choose to reject God? Why do they turn their back on that love? Aren't they in even more need of Him?
I know it can't be any other way but how do you cope with it? All those lost souls. I cry for those that reject Him. I cry for Him because of those that reject Him.

[B. W.]

Story, as far as Hell is concerned, GOD doesn't put them there - THEY put themselves there, by rejecting Him. Of course, people don't want the eternal punishment of Hell, and they would love to enjoy the joyous aspects of Heaven, But they don't want the LORD - THE focus and most joyous aspect of Heaven - nor do they want to submit to and follow Him. So, God will give them EXACTLY what they want (at least, if they don't want HIM, then He doesn't want THEM in Heaven - as no rebels will be found or allowed there!). Of course, God's justice also demands that they not get ALL they want (to avoid Him, yet WITHOUT incurring His penalty for that avoidance).

I know, and it breaks my heart.

Why does anyone choose to reject God? Why do they turn their back on that love? Aren't they in even more need of Him?
I know it can't be any other way but how do you cope with it? All those lost souls. I cry for those that reject Him. I cry for Him because of those that reject Him.

It is amazing that folks would reject God and also children do reject their own parents desire for their good and do bad things too.

The following passages used to puzzle me...

Rev 16:5-7, "And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it." 7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments." NASB

Nowadays I am not puzzled by this. I can now grasp its implications: many people of their own free volition and reasoning simply want nothing to do with god whom they cannot control in order to justify desecration of the ways of God's Goodness. You can demonstrate godly love to them and they will reject it, take advantage of it, and in hubris use the word Love to say to God, "you can't do harm to me and must take me because you love, so I can live any old way I please ."

In other words, they actually pit the nature and character of God's love against its self. We now have teachers denying Hell, or air conditioning it, and saying God can't keep anyone in hell because he loves. This shows a complete desecration towards God's love. God's love chastens and holds responsible those that abuse love for gain and sin. It was because of Love he actually made hell for the fallen angels and their minions as Jesus mentions in Matthew 25. Hell separates and banishes those who desecrated God's love by justifying acts, behaviors, God warns as destructive, and to turn away from by means of His free grace. God's love protects those who are his who have come to him in simple faith and are changed in a very natural way by his Grace (Titus 2:11-15 NIV and 1 John 1:9).

Problem is, human nature seeks to get away with desecration of the ways, order, and character of God on many different levels. In the Last day’s tribulation period, this is clearly manifested. People will say they love God better than God does and become haters of God and goodness. They will desecrate these things with their logic and actions. Look up the word desecrate, desecration, and sacrilege sometime.

Rob Bell, used to do some good videos portraying great bible truths. He became part of the emergent church movement and now lunched into full blown Universalism. If one learns to hear, one will hear snide hubris pride in is arguments against hell. He is walking on various dangerous ground being a prominent teacher who influences many by equating human concept of love as superior to God's love. He pits the character of God's love against itself in order to promote justification for ways that desecrate God's marriage union, dealings with sin, and Jesus own words on the eternal nature of Hell. Someone who does this as he does is on shaking ground and needs our prayers for repentance.

I also ask all of us not to measure God's love by our own standards of what we think agape love is about. I mentioned this before that God's love governs His Justice and His Justice govern His Love. By His Justice, people can become freely redeemed by the blood of Christ and transformed out of their darkness freely by faith in His free grace that changes from the inside out. Or they can freely reject his justice of grace through desecration of God’s justice and love.

By his loving Justice, he respects the detrimental decisions of human beings to reject him completely as that is Just and according to His love. In so doing, they made their way known by a living reality they cannot deny that they desire a place without God's goodness or a place they can continue to desecrate God's goodness without consequence. God's justice of his love separates the profane from the consecrated in order to protect His house (his new heavens and earth) from experiencing the likes of sin, rebellion, death, forever. That is Love governed by Justice and justice governed by love.

We may not fully comprehend such love but there it is, first seen on the cross, waking us up to what sin really is, so we can turn to the Lord of Glory and be changed into his own people separating those that freely come to him from out from those that choose to freely reject and desecrate the Holy things of God.

I'd hang tight with the one how loved me enough to expose what my sin is and change me from the inside out than what someone like Rob Bell currently loftily teaches about a love that justifies desecration of marriage, holiness, graces, mercy, justice, love... Pray he turns away from this by seeing what he is really doing.

Of all the sand in the entire universe, earth like one grain of these sands, The Lord of Host voluntarily came into this mere speck of sand to wake up a blind and ungrateful people to the errors of their ways shows a love more profound than I can fully grasp. With that, those so awoken who accept his saving grace, he seals forever his own, and never lets them go. Those that reject, are banishes to place without God as they so freely chose. None of us can fully grasp the deepness of God's character but we can gain a glimpse of His love at work governing His justice and His justice governing His love. Likewise, this may cause some of us to weep as Jesus for the lost in our own gardens.

Then to see how people desecrate the goodness of God, we will agree with the angel: "And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it." 7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments." Rev 16:5-7 NASB
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[PaulSacramento]

People sometimes want/hope that God's loving nature somehow supersedes His nature of being Just.
They want/hope that there is no punishment for those that reject God because he IS love and that should, according to them, be more "powerful" or more "important" than justice.
They don't seem to grasp that God isn't the one to punish the wicked, they do it to themselves.
THEY choose hell, openly.
Love can NOT be forced and neither cam worship and don't make any mistake, to LOVE God IS to WORSHIP God and to worship God IS to love God.
And some people refuse to do it, period.
And God's Just nature is NOT to punish but to allow people to have what they want and not to force them.
It IS Just to allow people their own fate is that is what they want.
See, I don't think that anyone will ever end up in hell if they do NOT KNOW God. Everyone will be allowed the chance to know God and everyone will be allowed the choice to worship God ie: LOVE Him or to not.

[Philip]

I think there are a couple of reasons why Rob Bell went off track. First, he's not accepted Scripture as fact, which cracked open the door to many extremely and unlikely interpretations of it - most dangerously, for Bell, the ones dealing with damnation and punishment. I think he tries to separate people's immoral behavior from the fact that they are, made obvious by their behavior, simultaneously also rejecting God. Avoiding, running from, ignoring Him, replacing Him with something else (false religion or otherwise) is to reject God. The other thing he seems to have bought into is that people do these things largely out of ignorance, so it's not as if they are purposely rejecting God. But we only see the tip of the iceberg, the outer manifestations of what is going on in a person's heart and mind. Bell can't wrap his mind around how God can both love so intensely, but also punish so horribly - ESPECIALLY, eternally. And, no doubt there's a part of me that shudders at that fact. But I do know that this is what the Bible clearly and redundantly teaches. God is not a man. He knows what is best, what is righteous, what is just. I must trust Him in such things.

And, as B.W. says, making the gates of Heaven impenetrable to those who ETERNALLY (yes, ETERNALLY, surely you don't think they EVER will change their hearts and minds, as they've ALREADY had a LIFETIME to have done so???!!!) remain in rebellion. Heaven could not be what makes it Heaven with rebels and troublemakers to continuously infect and perpetuate Heaven with the very things that God says make this earth a living hell. And so those who would cause further trouble in Heaven, who ultimately don't want anything to do with God and His ways, will get their wish! Bell seems to think people who hate God will, one day (against their will???!!!), someday, SOMEHOW change to wanting and loving God. But how would THAT ever happen unless God imposes HIS will over THEIR will? That's one thing God will NEVER do to free beings made in His image. So, our future protected space (Heaven!) is immune from evil and those who love to perpetuate it. Actually, as a man, I STILL sin, and look forward to that day when I will no longer. And, while I don't know that much about it, I would imagine the isolation IN Hell has a benefit, in that, even there, those who only love their own ways, are protected from each other's evil actions and deeds. Someone else might speak to my speculation on this.

[crochet1949]

Satan also blinds people's eyes to God's truth. He's the great deceiver -- Satan knows exactly what his future holds in hell and he's out to deceive as many people as he can as to what their personal fate will be. Satan knows there is no end of suffering in hell -- that hell is as forever as heaven is. But satan Wants Company.

Satan Wants people to think that there will Always be a 'tomorrow' in their lives. But no one knows When their time will be up. There's a song that says "why not Now' why 'wait' until 'whatever' happens -- Then the time will be right to accept Jesus Christ as Personal Savior.

And hell is Not meant for people -- it's meant Strictly for satan and the false prophet and the beast / Revelation. The Only reason people will end up there is because they reject God's plan to stay Out and be able to be In heaven.

If people would be willing to read and believe and trust God's Word. Satan gets in our face and says 'no it's Not'. But it's done in very subtle ways. He gets in our faces with all sorts of stuff that side-track us from God. Satan knows our human weaknesses and uses those any time any way he can to side track us -- so we need to be in God's Word often.

And, I've found that I do a Great job of 'giving' advice but not too good at 'following' it myself.

Once a person is dead, there's no more chance for decision-making.

[Nessa]

As a person who likes to asks questions, its easy to see the same trait in Rob.

His ministry is a ministry to undermind the truth of the bible based on questions

Of course Jesus asked alot of questions too.

However, Rob questions don't actually move people towards the truth. He ultimately leaves people with one question 'How do we know anything?' And if we don't really know anything for sure then lets go with what sounds more alluring to non christians.