The study of chance.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Lets take a look at a coin flip.

Scientifically the odds are 50/50 that it will be heads or tails.

But its possible a god or God is determining the outcome.

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

Chance from a scientific perspective is just that, chance.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

You're personifying science :-p it's a tool. And...what does this with anything? Because getting a million coins to land upright is much more probable than one protein of 100 amino acids being formed that can function...far more improbable, and depending on who you rely on to define the cut off between probable and impossible, impossible :-p

[BGoodForGoodSake]

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

You're personifying science :-p it's a tool. And...what does this with anything? Because getting a million coins to land upright is much more probable than one protein of 100 amino acids being formed that can function...far more improbable, and depending on who you rely on to define the cut off between probable and impossible, impossible :-p

Let me tell you something, you and I don't share the same genetic makeup, yet we both live and breathe. Variability itself prooves that the genetic makeup on an organism is not as fragile as you are claiming.

[Jbuza]

Lets take a look at a coin flip.

Scientifically the odds are 50/50 that it will be heads or tails.

But its possible a god or God is determining the outcome.

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

Chance from a scientific perspective is just that, chance.

While what you lay out here is true, it doesn't mean that I couldn't theroize that God was indeed determining the outcome of the coin toss. IT doesn't mean that I couldn't carefully observe the coin tosses, and work within the framework of science. You may say, well saying that God did it isn't science, and I would jump up and say I agree completely, it is speculation just like any good theory. I disagree about chance being simply chance from a scientific perspective, that is interpreted and guided by the hypothesis that we develop to study the coin tossing phenomenon. We could come up with several equally viable hypotheses to explain this or any phenomenon.

[Blob]

Lets take a look at a coin flip.

Scientifically the odds are 50/50 that it will be heads or tails.

But its possible a god or God is determining the outcome.

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

Chance from a scientific perspective is just that, chance.

It's also interesting to note that any given toss is entirely unpredictable; but that any sufficiently large number of tosses has an entirely predictable spread - i.e. throw the coin a million times and you will have half-a-million heads and half-a-million tails to a very high accuracy. That assumes the coin is not biased nor interfered with, of course.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Lets take a look at a coin flip.

Scientifically the odds are 50/50 that it will be heads or tails.

But its possible a god or God is determining the outcome.

But as far as science can tell it is 50/50.

Chance from a scientific perspective is just that, chance.

It's also interesting to note that any given toss is entirely unpredictable; but that any sufficiently large number of tosses has an entirely predictable spread - i.e. throw the coin a million times and you will have half-a-million heads and half-a-million tails to a very high accuracy. That assumes the coin is not biased nor interfered with, of course.

So are you saying that given a set of data, it can be determined statistically that something happens by chance?

Rhetorical question of course.

But on the other hand, the fact that it is always this way may be due to supernatural interference determining order in an otherwise chaotic universe?

:The viewpoints above do not reflect the viewpoints of this poster.

But an omnipotent being, must possess this capability.

[August]

Far be it from me to be difficult, but I think it is entirely possible to scientifically determine the outcome of a coin flip, if all the variables are known. I don't know what all the variables are that you would need to know, but it would probably include the weight of the coin, the amount of revolutions it will make due to an applied force, how strong the applied force is, the effect of wind resistance etc. I think you get the idea.

So is it still just chance, or is it just a case of unknown variables?

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Far be it from me to be difficult, but I think it is entirely possible to scientifically determine the outcome of a coin flip, if all the variables are known. I don't know what all the variables are that you would need to know, but it would probably include the weight of the coin, the amount of revolutions it will make due to an applied force, how strong the applied force is, the effect of wind resistance etc. I think you get the idea.

So is it still just chance, or is it just a case of unknown variables?

In the real world there are many many variables.

When there are so many unknown variables, it becomes a non-linear equation.

If there are no photons bouncing off an tree in the middle of the woods when it falls down, does the tree really fall?


The outcome can only be approximated.

Chaos theory can model and describe it but the outcome is still a probability.

Quantum mathematics works on the same principle.
Each particle is likened to a coin still in the air.

We can measure the speed, but not its value.
If we measure the value the speed of the coin information dissapears.

[puritan lad]

This is a case of unknown variables (to us). There is no such thing as "chance" from the viewpoint of the Almighty.

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it."

“If an iota of chance is allowed into the universe, then God's sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.” — R. J. Rushdoony, The Necessity of Systemic Theology

[BGoodForGoodSake]

This is a case of unknown variables (to us). There is no such thing as "chance" from the viewpoint of the Almighty.

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it."

“If an iota of chance is allowed into the universe, then God's sovereignty is denied, and God is not God.” — R. J. Rushdoony, The Necessity of Systemic Theology

Yay, someone agrees with me.

For any agnostics reading this. This has got to be a possibility, no?
In principal.

[August]

Are you saying it cannot be predicted if we know the variables? You are appealing to the fact that we are not aware of the values of the variables, but that does not mean that they cannot be known. Look at this study:

"The Not So Random Coin Toss

All Things Considered, February 24, 2004 · Flipping a coin may not be the fairest way to settle disputes. About a decade ago, statistician Persi Diaconis started to wonder if the outcome of a coin flip really is just a matter of chance. He had Harvard University engineers build him a mechanical coin flipper. Diaconis, now at Stanford University, found that if a coin is launched exactly the same way, it lands exactly the same way.

The randomness in a coin toss, it appears, is introduced by sloppy humans. Each human-generated flip has a different height and speed, and is caught at a different angle, giving different outcomes."

Complete study here: http://stat.stanford.edu/~cgates/PERSI/ ... swithJ.pdf

So the apparent randomness is due to the forces exerted by humans, but even that can be known. We measure that all the time in biokinetics to predict the speed at which a baseball will be thrown etc.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Are you saying it cannot be predicted if we know the variables? You are appealing to the fact that we are not aware of the values of the variables, but that does not mean that they cannot be known. Look at this study:

"The Not So Random Coin Toss

All Things Considered, February 24, 2004 · Flipping a coin may not be the fairest way to settle disputes. About a decade ago, statistician Persi Diaconis started to wonder if the outcome of a coin flip really is just a matter of chance. He had Harvard University engineers build him a mechanical coin flipper. Diaconis, now at Stanford University, found that if a coin is launched exactly the same way, it lands exactly the same way.

The randomness in a coin toss, it appears, is introduced by sloppy humans. Each human-generated flip has a different height and speed, and is caught at a different angle, giving different outcomes."

Complete study here: http://stat.stanford.edu/~cgates/PERSI/ ... swithJ.pdf

So the apparent randomness is due to the forces exerted by humans, but even that can be known. We measure that all the time in biokinetics to predict the speed at which a baseball will be thrown etc.

Good!
=)

Ah, but this is in a controlled environment to reduce the variables. So in this case the outcome can be predicted.

But shrink the coin down to quantum levels and what kind of system do we have?
Even measuring the coin will determine the outcome of a quantum coin!

btw link didin't work for me.

nevermind, it works fine now.

[bizzt]

Are you saying it cannot be predicted if we know the variables? You are appealing to the fact that we are not aware of the values of the variables, but that does not mean that they cannot be known. Look at this study:

"The Not So Random Coin Toss

All Things Considered, February 24, 2004 · Flipping a coin may not be the fairest way to settle disputes. About a decade ago, statistician Persi Diaconis started to wonder if the outcome of a coin flip really is just a matter of chance. He had Harvard University engineers build him a mechanical coin flipper. Diaconis, now at Stanford University, found that if a coin is launched exactly the same way, it lands exactly the same way.

The randomness in a coin toss, it appears, is introduced by sloppy humans. Each human-generated flip has a different height and speed, and is caught at a different angle, giving different outcomes."

Complete study here: http://stat.stanford.edu/~cgates/PERSI/ ... swithJ.pdf

So the apparent randomness is due to the forces exerted by humans, but even that can be known. We measure that all the time in biokinetics to predict the speed at which a baseball will be thrown etc.

Good!
=)

Ah, but this is in a controlled environment to reduce the variables. So in this case the outcome can be predicted.

But shrink the coin down to quantum levels and what kind of system do we have?
Even measuring the coin will determine the outcome of a quantum coin!

btw link didin't work for me.

Worked for me.

[puritan lad]

August,

Certainly, these variables can be known, but I seriously doubt that they are in most instances. I presume that is where the "chance" comes in.

I guess if a person practices tossing a coin enough, he can learn to get the desired results.

[August]

Ah, but this is in a controlled environment to reduce the variables. So in this case the outcome can be predicted.

What variables were reduced? It is exactly the same types of forces that act on the coin, whether they are exerted by humans or a machine.