Oregon College Shootings

[Kurieuo]

Kurieuo: Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns? Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

OK, Kurieuo, you don't have to put on your sanctimonious, mock outrage on. Of COURSE, Jesus' meaning might not be so obvious. However, He IS referring to the obvious dangers His disciples would soon face. And He does mention common utilitarian items designed for specific uses. But IF you are going to use Scripture to try to endorse passiveness and pacifist sensibilities, I think you are greatly mistaken. Why did God have Israel create an army - armed with WEAPONS???!!! Why didn't He just want them all to be PRAYER warriors?

Red herring thrown off the back of abelcainsbrother's comments.

In other words, where did I ever endorse Pacificism? In fact, I've stated here and there on this board that I believe Pacificism is immoral. Why? Because it'll stand by while the weak and vulnerable are murdered in cold blood.

BUT, the taking up to two swords, evidently was not in Jesus' mind for protection. In fact, he berated his follower/s for thinking such was the intention when some used the swords for that purpose.

I've said contradicts that force should be used to restrain evil. The thing is, this belief that somehow we're the good guys. You know, I know, all it takes is the wrong antidepressant to alter your minds, and you've got a psycho. And I know people in the US pop them like candy, even more so than Australians.

The issue isn't that there are bad people you need to protect yourself from. The issue is coming to grips with everyone has the potential to be that bad person. And so, laws are needed to restrain evil people would commit.

To touch again upon taking up the sword (aka gun by modern standards), only in different light... there is actually one passage in Scripture that endorses such being taken up which can be found in Romans 13:

• 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Again, my post targeted your out of context quoting of Scripture. If you can muster up support for Jesus endorsing taking up arms to protect one's self then present it.

And ACB, your comments about a shotgun... it seems clear that there is a shoot and ask questions later mentality. Shoot to kill, is just as good as shoot to maim -- all in the name of Fear. You know, police are suppose to identify themselves and give criminals a chance to surrender where possible. I dare say most people in the US carrying a gun for "protection", if they saw an intruder, would kill first, then ask questions later. And that is an issue. And I dare say indefensible before God and a clear breaking away from following Jesus' teachings.

[Kurieuo]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

[PaulSacramento]

Let me put it this way, as some of you know I am a martial artist, have been for over 35 years.
I was also a sniper in the Army.
I short I know more ways to maim and kill people that I care to recall.
Yet, I do NOT believe that killing is correct, that it is an option other than to protect a life.

Weapons are not the problem, people's willingness to use violence and to kill to resolve/settle issues is the problem.

While eliminating firearms will curtail the ability to FIND firearms to commit violence, it will not address the issue and actually SOLVE the problem.

EX:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_at ... 2%80%9312)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

And before someone says that with a firearm the casualties would have been greater ( obviously they would have) we must NEVER FORGET that ONE person is one TOO MANY.

[Philip]

Let's also not attempt to glue two different situations together when we speak of Jesus' comments about swords. He admonishes Peter's attempt to prevent His arrest because Peter was attempting to stop the very things Jesus was sent here to do: Be arrested, tried and killed! The context in His advice otherwise was different. And, prior to Peter severing that ear, did Jesus not know Peter carried a sword? Why did He allow that all that time it was in his possession? And, also, why, in His cautions about dangers, do we find this further exchange? 22:38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."" To me, that implies that they ARE to arm themselves, but that their ultimate protection wasn't in their NUMBER of swords, but in Him - thus, "it is enough."

[RickD]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

[Nessa]

Let's also not attempt to glue two different situations together when we speak of Jesus' comments about swords. He admonishes Peter's attempt to prevent His arrest because Peter was attempting to stop the very things Jesus was sent here to do: Be arrested, tried and killed! The context in His advice otherwise was different. And, prior to Peter severing that ear, did Jesus not know Peter carried a sword? Why did He allow that all that time it was in his possession? And, also, why, in His cautions about dangers, do we find this further exchange? 22:38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."" To me, that implies that they ARE to arm themselves, but that their ultimate protection wasn't in their NUMBER of swords, but in Him - thus, "it is enough."

There are alternate explanations for the 'its enough'. See the article in the jesus and sword thread which mentions one.

[Nessa]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

Why is it not possible to take from it that which is good and leave behind that which may not be good? Self defense in and of itself is good.

[melanie]

Kurieuo: Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns? Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

OK, Kurieuo, you don't have to put on your sanctimonious, mock outrage on. Of COURSE, Jesus' meaning might not be so obvious. However, He IS referring to the obvious dangers His disciples would soon face. And He does mention common utilitarian items designed for specific uses. But IF you are going to use Scripture to try to endorse passiveness and pacifist sensibilities, I think you are greatly mistaken. Why did God have Israel create an army - armed with WEAPONS???!!! Why didn't He just want them all to be PRAYER warriors?

Fearful? No! Practical, a realist? Absolutely! Did God not give us a brain to perceive dangers and to do OUR part to protect our families? I never owned a gun until about 3 years ago, and I'll be 58 this week! But I came to realize it's a practical tool for protection. Yes, my faith is NOT in my guns, but in the Lord's protection. But He expects me to do my part, not ONLY in prayer and faith, but also to the best of my ability in prudent ways. K, do you wear a seatbelt when you ride the highway? Or do you just pray and have faith in God so that you don't need the protection of a nylon strap and airbags? Of, course, I'm sure you undertake all manner of precautions due to the hazardous potential of many things. But by your logic, that shows walking in fear, a lack of faith.

The passion I have is NOT for guns, but for my rights to protect those I love in a way I see reasonable in relation to widely known potential threats. I don't like emotional arguments or political correctness. And so people that think a law-abiding person shouldn't be able to legally own a gun, that don't understand criminals will still have and easily obtain them - well, that really ticks me off! I pray I'll never have to use my gun. So, do I have faith that God will never allow me to ever be in a position where I might need to defend myself against dangerous people? But why should I believe something that newspapers daily show me Christians facing such dangers - in which they are sometimes tragically killed. Was their faith too weak to avoid such things - or have they not also lived in a sinful world filled with threatening and dangerous people. Maybe even Christian cops don't need guns - maybe police departments should make them optional for those of such spiritual sensibilities? Do you think it's a lack of faith for a Christian to own, or to desire to own, a gun?

This is an important debate. Revelant. And one that needs to be debated free of BS.
Why?
Because people are dying.
That is why there is passion.
That is why a few Aussies would bother to discuss this issue with any concern. We are sitting pretty. We don't have this issue. It is is not relevant to our neighbourhood.
But we care.
That is the motivation
What the hell is going on? And going wrong?
Because something is wrong.
Abel I admire what you said and I agree. This should not divide us.
What is "us"
A dysfunctional family under Christ?
Different ideas, differing theology.
We discuss differences everyday surrounding our faith, and nothing brings about the nervousness anger and anxiety as does this discussion.
That is telling in itself.

Which brings me to an issue that has given me the irrits for long enough
How many times have I said let's call a spade a spade.
Let's get real and leave to the wayside political jargon that conflates the issue and does not resolve.

We need a lesson in what Political correctness means and what it doesn't.
The definition;
agreeing with the idea that people should be careful to not use language or behave in a way that could offend a particular group of people.

Myself personally I have been viewed as politically incorrect and as correct. Depending on the situation.
When I have heard people refer to our Aboriginal ancestors and people as coons and abos, I have found offence. More than once I have been asked ' so you are one of those politically correct people'? And my answer is if that means I'm not an assho*le then yes!
Political correctness is the direct use of language to marginalise a group of people.
It has its merits as we have seen in this forum.
That feeling of we love you, but not okay.
Those that have had the strongest feelings of protest against political correctness, have understood that at times, inflammatory language is not not okay.

Similar to the issue with FL. language that was not viewed as okay.
That by definition is political incorrectness.


How has it gone too far?
By redefining the purpose of language to not offend, to the extreme?
Some people are fat.
Call it curvy, which I'm not arguing is beautiful, but language is what is it and shouldn't be used as a political or social tool.
Some people are short,
Vertically challenged??
In the 90's political correctness just went berserk.
But it was defined by the use of language that was deemed offensive.

Fast forward to now and it the one of the most bastardised terms of this era.
If you don't agree with gun reform "polically correct"
You believe in helping refugees "politically correct".

That is not the meaning or definition of politically correct!!
A different point of view was never the intentional application of this term.
It is going out of your way to use non offensive language as to not marginalise anyone.
Great idea when applied rationally, stupid idea when over extended.


That is not at all the case with gun reform.
There is no margin for the political correct card to be branded except for intellectual dishonesty.
No use of offensive language to offend anyone is the crux of this issue.
It's a bullcrap argument.

Let's make this clear.
Issues regarding gun reform and the Syrian refugee crisis that has been repeatedly branded on this forum as political correctness have nothing to zero to do with politically correctness but rather a differing point of view that is dishonestly placed within those restrains.

The crux of political correctness is to not offend by use of specific language.
Whilst it is not my intention to offend by way of language if my opinion offends I couldn't give a rats ar*e.
Anybody who knows me would ever claim I am politically correct.
If you don't like my opinion then I couldn't give a flying fire truck.
Stiff titties.
I'm not going to whitewash it, pretend what is isn't, or glaze over it.

What has been branded as political correctness on this forum by some is the opposite.
To pussy foot around, to not want to offend based on opinion but rather specific use of language has never been my intention.
Yes, I disagree with you, it's not political correctness but a different point of view.
I'm my opinion a better point of view.
Call it many things but political correctness it's not, because I don't care if it offends you.
And that is what the term actually means to not offend and not how it's been bastardised to mean a differing point of view different to your own.

[Philip]

Does it matter, when it comes to someone intent upon doing you great bodily harm (or worse), does it matter whether you use a weapon or your fists and feet? As BOTH are employed with aggression - that is, if it is to be effective at stopping an attack. Again, why have an ARMy to enforce a peace (see LOTS of guys with guns defending against lots of others wielding the same)?

[melanie]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

Seriously??
Are we going there?
Putting our kids in martial arts as some kind of equivalent to owning assault weaponry?
My son is starting mixed Martial arts.
Not in conflict with Christianty but because he is passionate about football and it is the maximum fitness regime he can follow.
He asked me if he could do it and I asked why? His repsonse for the ultimate fitness workout as pre season for football.
My repsonse yeh sure. That's commitment.


Dylan Roof the guy who shot all those people in Charleston got a 45. Calibre gun for his birthday from his father for his 21st which he used to kill 9 people.
Don't compare sending your kids to martial arts.
Not quite the same

[RickD]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

Why is it not possible to take from it that which is good and leave behind that which may not be good? Self defense in and of itself is good.

Then send the kids to boxing classes, where there in no inherent unbiblical spirituality in the teaching itself. In Muay Thai, the spiritual teaching is just as much a part of it as the physical training.

You wouldn't( I assume) send your children off to Hindu classes, just because meditating is good for anxiety, right?

Or, you wouldn't send children off to Satan worship, just because camaraderie is good for self esteem.

[PaulSacramento]

While there is a spiritual element in some MA that is incompatible with Christianity, the reality is that most MA gyms/dojos/Dojang/Kwoons are commercial and teach only the "competitive aspects" of MA and while some "buddhism" may be present, it is morals and ethics rather than spiritual.
I have been exposed to the "darker side" of MA, the TCMA ( Traditional CHinese MA) have a subsystem know as "sun dar" * much like the "haragei" of some Japanese systems ( Koryu styles typically) but far more "intense" and yes, that is NOT something any Christian should involve themselves in.
BUT that is something that 99.9% of people doing a martial sport will never be exposed to.

[RickD]

Kurieuo: Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns? Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

OK, Kurieuo, you don't have to put on your sanctimonious, mock outrage on. Of COURSE, Jesus' meaning might not be so obvious. However, He IS referring to the obvious dangers His disciples would soon face. And He does mention common utilitarian items designed for specific uses. But IF you are going to use Scripture to try to endorse passiveness and pacifist sensibilities, I think you are greatly mistaken. Why did God have Israel create an army - armed with WEAPONS???!!! Why didn't He just want them all to be PRAYER warriors?

Fearful? No! Practical, a realist? Absolutely! Did God not give us a brain to perceive dangers and to do OUR part to protect our families? I never owned a gun until about 3 years ago, and I'll be 58 this week! But I came to realize it's a practical tool for protection. Yes, my faith is NOT in my guns, but in the Lord's protection. But He expects me to do my part, not ONLY in prayer and faith, but also to the best of my ability in prudent ways. K, do you wear a seatbelt when you ride the highway? Or do you just pray and have faith in God so that you don't need the protection of a nylon strap and airbags? Of, course, I'm sure you undertake all manner of precautions due to the hazardous potential of many things. But by your logic, that shows walking in fear, a lack of faith.

The passion I have is NOT for guns, but for my rights to protect those I love in a way I see reasonable in relation to widely known potential threats. I don't like emotional arguments or political correctness. And so people that think a law-abiding person shouldn't be able to legally own a gun, that don't understand criminals will still have and easily obtain them - well, that really ticks me off! I pray I'll never have to use my gun. So, do I have faith that God will never allow me to ever be in a position where I might need to defend myself against dangerous people? But why should I believe something that newspapers daily show me Christians facing such dangers - in which they are sometimes tragically killed. Was their faith too weak to avoid such things - or have they not also lived in a sinful world filled with threatening and dangerous people. Maybe even Christian cops don't need guns - maybe police departments should make them optional for those of such spiritual sensibilities? Do you think it's a lack of faith for a Christian to own, or to desire to own, a gun?

This is an important debate. Revelant. And one that needs to be debated free of BS.
Why?
Because people are dying.
That is why there is passion.
That is why a few Aussies would bother to discuss this issue with any concern. We are sitting pretty. We don't have this issue. It is is not relevant to our neighbourhood.
But we care.
That is the motivation
What the hell is going on? And going wrong?
Because something is wrong.
Abel I admire what you said and I agree. This should not divide us.
What is "us"
A dysfunctional family under Christ?
Different ideas, differing theology.
We discuss differences everyday surrounding our faith, and nothing brings about the nervousness anger and anxiety as does this discussion.
That is telling in itself.

Which brings me to an issue that has given me the irrits for long enough
How many times have I said let's call a spade a spade.
Let's get real and leave to the wayside political jargon that conflates the issue and does not resolve.

We need a lesson in what Political correctness means and what it doesn't.
The definition;
agreeing with the idea that people should be careful to not use language or behave in a way that could offend a particular group of people.

Myself personally I have been viewed as politically incorrect and as correct. Depending on the situation.
When I have heard people refer to our Aboriginal ancestors and people as coons and abos, I have found offence. More than once I have been asked ' so you are one of those politically correct people'? And my answer is if that means I'm not an assho*le then yes!
Political correctness is the direct use of language to marginalise a group of people.
It has its merits as we have seen in this forum.
That feeling of we love you, but not okay.
Those that have had the strongest feelings of protest against political correctness, have understood that at times, inflammatory language is not not okay.

Similar to the issue with FL. language that was not viewed as okay.
That by definition is political incorrectness.


How has it gone too far?
By redefining the purpose of language to not offend, to the extreme?
Some people are fat.
Call it curvy, which I'm not arguing is beautiful, but language is what is it and shouldn't be used as a political or social tool.
Some people are short,
Vertically challenged??
In the 90's political correctness just went berserk.
But it was defined by the use of language that was deemed offensive.

Fast forward to now and it the one of the most bastardised terms of this era.
If you don't agree with gun reform "polically correct"
You believe in helping refugees "politically correct".

That is not the meaning or definition of politically correct!!
A different point of view was never the intentional application of this term.
It is going out of your way to use non offensive language as to not marginalise anyone.
Great idea when applied rationally, stupid idea when over extended.


That is not at all the case with gun reform.
There is no margin for the political correct card to be branded except for intellectual dishonesty.
No use of offensive language to offend anyone is the crux of this issue.
It's a bullcrap argument.

Let's make this clear.
Issues regarding gun reform and the Syrian refugee crisis that has been repeatedly branded on this forum as political correctness have nothing to zero to do with politically correctness but rather a differing point of view that is dishonestly placed within those restrains.

The crux of political correctness is to not offend by use of specific language.
Whilst it is not my intention to offend by way of language if my opinion offends I couldn't give a rats ar*e.
Anybody who knows me would ever claim I am politically correct.
If you don't like my opinion then I couldn't give a flying fire truck.
Stiff titties.
I'm not going to whitewash it, pretend what is isn't, or glaze over it.

What has been branded as political correctness on this forum by some is the opposite.
To pussy foot around, to not want to offend based on opinion but rather specific use of language has never been my intention.
Yes, I disagree with you, it's not political correctness but a different point of view.
I'm my opinion a better point of view.
Call it many things but political correctness it's not, because I don't care if it offends you.
And that is what the term actually means to not offend and not how it's been bastardised to mean a differing point of view different to your own.

Cliff notes please.

[PaulSacramento]

Rick,commercial MT gyms do NOT have any spiritual element at all, though they do tow the party of line of "self defence first".

[RickD]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

Seriously??
Are we going there?
Putting our kids in martial arts as some kind of equivalent to owning assault weaponry?
My son is starting mixed Martial arts.
Not in conflict with Christianty but because he is passionate about football and it is the maximum fitness regime he can follow.
He asked me if he could do it and I asked why? His repsonse for the ultimate fitness workout as pre season for football.
My repsonse yeh sure. That's commitment.


Dylan Roof the guy who shot all those people in Charleston got a 45. Calibre gun for his birthday from his father for his 21st which he used to kill 9 people.
Don't compare sending your kids to martial arts.
Not quite the same

I'm talking about a matter of conscience. If one's conscience allows him to own a gun for self, and family defense, yet K just calls it flat out wrong, then why isn't it flat out wrong to send children off to a Muay Thai class that teaches unbiblical spiritual things?