Oregon College Shootings

[PaulSacramento]

There is a passage in the OT that I like to remember when I train:

Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

[RickD]

There is a passage in the OT that I like to remember when I train:

Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

Dwayne Johnson is your trainer?

If you smelllllllll what The Rock is cookin.....

[Nessa]

But I have a question for those who don't advocate for self defense at all. Be it guns, or martial arts, or whatever.

I'm not sure if there's anyone here that just holds the position that they don't need any of that because they trust God. And they'd lay down their life if someone attacked them or their family, because that's what they believe scripture says.


Is there anyone with that position?

Yes, this isn't addressed to me either but.....

If God calls us to protect and defend life within the womb, wouldn't it follow that God would also call us to protect and defend life outside of the womb?

We are in this world but not of this world. Paul is right. The guns are being driven by a fear mentality. A fear that is of this world. Not of God.

I know alot about fear and there is a huge difference between being motivated by healthy fear and unhealthy fear

[Nessa]

Some of you are advocating for physical training, martial arts, etc., for self defense, in place of guns. Which is fine by me. I'm not going to argue against that.

But I have a question for those who don't advocate for self defense at all. Be it guns, or martial arts, or whatever.

I'm not sure if there's anyone here that just holds the position that they don't need any of that because they trust God. And they'd lay down their life if someone attacked them or their family, because that's what they believe scripture says.


Is there anyone with that position?

That is a tough one Rick.
Not because I don't trust God but because it is our duty as stewards of His creation to protect ALL of His creation and, one can argue, His children.
I don't think that I COULDN'T fight back to save my family or another if I could ( I could being the operative word).
I would do anything in my power to protect and when I could do no more, I would accept death as someone that has Faith in Our Lord, I would commit my spirit and that ot those that I can't protect, into His hands.

Phillip - Rev 12:11
That includes our families lives.
Of course Im talking of having the right attitude towards death here, cos out of that attitude comes our thoughts and actions

[Kurieuo]

Let's also not attempt to glue two different situations together when we speak of Jesus' comments about swords. He admonishes Peter's attempt to prevent His arrest because Peter was attempting to stop the very things Jesus was sent here to do: Be arrested, tried and killed! The context in His advice otherwise was different. And, prior to Peter severing that ear, did Jesus not know Peter carried a sword? Why did He allow that all that time it was in his possession? And, also, why, in His cautions about dangers, do we find this further exchange? 22:38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."" To me, that implies that they ARE to arm themselves, but that their ultimate protection wasn't in their NUMBER of swords, but in Him - thus, "it is enough."

And Jesus said put away your sword, "don't you know that those who take up the sword, die by the sword." (Matt 26:52)
Certainly, it's not wrong to protect our self.
BUT, for those who can be so strong Christ, how much greater is it to take up love that is found in Christ and even die by that love? Consider the Christian man in this story who gave an ISIS fighter his Bible before being killed.

Here's the thing though, as I see matters, regarding the US which was birthed through taking up the sword.
Fighting for an ideal to be independent from England and the Commonwealth. Then there was an American-Mexico war. Americans also had to subdue hostile land, where there were native Americans (sadly), there were outlaws, there were bears, wolves, etc.
So it's understandable why it was built into the American constitution and people feel so strongly about the right for people to take up arms.

The issue in the past was about being able to defend one's self from threat of invasion (those bloody Brits and Mexicans!), threat of independence and deprivation of liberty, tyranny and being controlled, threat from the wild animals upon livelihood and the like. The ability to even provide for one's family hunting.

One question is, are those reasons still applicable to absolutely everyone in America today?
The only thing you've got, is fear? That "bad guys" rob and steal, and can come in and rape, etc.
Fear right? Bad argument to a Christian. There is only one we should fear.
Here is some Scripture about fear (and love)...

• 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
  
  Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
  
  Psalm 23:1:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, will fear no evil,for you are with me;

Many in the US seem quick to jump on the bandwagon of thought that having guns will allow you to protect yourself. The reality is it just means when robbers break in and steal, they'll try to do so when you're most vulnerable and try to carry a bigger gun.

No amount of guns is ever going to stop that. It is an illusion to think otherwise.
The "bad guys" aren't all stupid. They'll get a hold of guns, shoot you while you sleep and then rape your wife and daughter. And then kill them too. Then run of with your guns and cause damage elsewhere. How about that situation? Perhaps here and there, a home owner will get the better and manage to kill them too!

And meanwhile, while you all live in fear of evil in your valley of death (home), elsewhere and in the lead up to whatever situation you are preparing for, a "bad guy" goes into schools and takes out half a dozen or so kids. And if they don't have a gun, they most certainly know their next door neighbour does, a friend perhaps or if not, well they'll just buy one either off of some shmuck or at some store.

Guns are not the solution. Guns provide a false sense of security. And while they may protect in this or that instance this or that person, on the whole they cause greater destruction to innocent people.

Further look at the pro arguments often presented. They're largely about fear, when what is needed is love.
That sounds idealistic and is all very well, but it is one Jesus taught and so what we ought to strive for.
So what if a person invades? Here's an alternative situation. Perhaps they're some adolescent man who isn't saved.
If you just spoke up in a raised voice and said "Hey you! what are you doing??", they would likely crap their pants and probably awkwardly say "err, nothing..." while taking some backward steps... or simply just make a run for it.
BUT, owning a gun and fearing for your life, you don't hesitate to shoot first: *bang, bang your dead* I can just see Satan's mouth would be watering at the fact you, a Christian of all people, have just served him up another person on his platter in hell.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12)

Let's not forget that again, in the larger scheme of things more innocents may die, including your own family, with your own gun/s. It might be your teenage son being bullied at school who decides to pull the trigger on himself. It could be your toddler who accidentally shoots himself, or as happened not long ago, accidentally his own mother. It could be an intruder who steals your gun. What about those situations which are equally as valid as an intruder coming to rape and kill you or your family?

[Kurieuo]

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

How about some preventative common sense. What was the girl doing at home alone?
If she was under 12 or turning 12, then that's a misdemeanor where I live and you can end up with a three year sentence.

PS. I send my daughter and eldest son both to Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai classes.

Let's see...

K, you send your children to Muay Thai classes? You do realize the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai isn't compatible with Christianity, don't you?

So, owning a gun for defense of your family is against your conscience. But sending your children off to an anti Christian, spiritual practice is ok?

Melanie is right, I never said self defense was wrong.
And, I'd certainly invoke it even for myself, although I'd prefer to avoid the death of another.
Greater is the person who can love their enemies in Christ, and turn their other cheek rather than kill.

Re: Muay Thai, I'm quite aware of the spiritual components behind certain martial arts.
BUT, I didn't come in off that bat and it's certainly no prerequisite in Western commercialised versions.
What I send them to is an MMA class which has all three: wrestling, boxing, kicking. It's the first in Australia to open up in a gym. You know, we got to keep the trend of Christians being the best MMA fighters out there.

AS to my response to Philip that you put your smileys to, my response wasn't about the US gun issue, but more targeted at his wrongly trying to tie Jesus in to justify guns. Philip wrote: "Even Jesus told his disciples to carry a sword - the handgun of the day." Do you not see something wrong with this picture and Christ's teachings? What about what these pictures promote?

jesus-gun.png (234.31 KiB) Viewed 2585 times

2women.jpg (25.08 KiB) Viewed 2585 times

[abelcainsbrother]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

[Kurieuo]

I feel I've kind of gone off-track of my original intention.

Here is the simple question: Is there a problem with guns in America?

Regardless of culture, constitution, solutions or what-have-you, the statistics appear to reveal an affirmative, "yes". There is a problem specifically with such open gun laws which results in a very high gun-death ratio.
So besides going off-road talking about Jesus, that's all I've really attempted to argue regarding the US.

That is, regardless of what anyone says is right or wrong, regardless of self-defense or unreasonable killing, whatever Obama (who I don't like) is proposing as a solution, or what anyone else is proposing as a solution or whether there are other contributors to the problem -- the gun-death ratio itself is a clear problem in the US due to the proliferation of guns and deaths such cause.

[Kurieuo]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

It wouldn't be murder, but it wouldn't be love either.

Saul was chasing after David.
David feared for his life and fled.
While hiding and Saul relieved himself, David could have justifiably slain him.
David's love conquered fear and he at that point had a heart more inline with God.

Re: bad guys, I'm not making anyone out to be the bad guys.
BUT, I am saying all of us are "bad guys" (and gals).

• As it is written:
  
  “There is no one righteous, not even one;
  11 there is no one who understands;
  there is no one who seeks God.
  12 All have turned away,
  they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
  not even one.”
  13 “Their throats are open graves;
  their tongues practice deceit.”
  “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
  14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
  15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
  16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
  17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
  18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

I know even in my own heart, as much as I've reasoned otherwise here, that I'm quite murderous at times.
And, while I know better and desire to follow Christ's lead, I do recognise I have a murderous spirit within me. There is just that potential within me. I feel it within my free nature, and I know others feel it too. It is a human quality, a part of our human condition and ability to freely think and act within the confines of our creation.

I'm sure my murderous spirit would never be actualised, but being Christian I know there's that potential in any one. Not just they're the "bad guys", that is, those who have this or that mental condition so we can box them away and say, "Well that's them, but I'm not like them... I'm a good guy!"

I'll immediately distrust anyone who says to me, "You can trust me, I'm a good guy."

[Nessa]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

Having a right does not mean it's right tho

Abe, by 'blowing someone away'..is your aim to stop them or just kill them

[abelcainsbrother]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

It wouldn't be murder, but it wouldn't be love either.

Saul was chasing after David.
David feared for his life and fled.
While hiding and Saul relieved himself, David could have justifiably slain him.
David's love conquered fear and he at that point had a heart more inline with God.

Re: bad guys, I'm not making anyone out to be the bad guys.
BUT, I am saying all of us are "bad guys" (and gals).

• As it is written:
  
  “There is no one righteous, not even one;
  11 there is no one who understands;
  there is no one who seeks God.
  12 All have turned away,
  they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
  not even one.”
  13 “Their throats are open graves;
  their tongues practice deceit.”
  “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
  14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
  15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
  16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
  17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
  18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

I know even in my own heart, as much as I've reasoned otherwise here, that I'm quite murderous at times.
And, while I know better and desire to follow Christ's lead, I do recognise I have a murderous spirit within me. There is just that potential within me. I feel it within my free nature, and I know others feel it too. It is a human quality, a part of our human condition and ability to freely think and act within the confines of our creation.

I'm sure my murderous spirit would never be actualised, but being Christian I know there's that potential in any one. Not just they're the "bad guys", that is, those who have this or that mental condition so we can box them away and say, "Well that's them, but I'm not like them... I'm a good guy!"

I'll immediately distrust anyone who says to me, "You can trust me, I'm a good guy."

Yes it would be love.It seems to me that if a person has a gun for protection they are ready to shed blood to you,but that is not the case,it is for protection and self defense,its that simple.
Maybe I understand better where you are coming from because I do not have a muderous bone in my body however I realize that we are all different. I have no motives just because I believe in the right to have a gun for protection however I realize other people are different.But,lets say some wacked out gunman went into a school shooting up the place and somebody seen them and went to their car got a gun came back in and blew the gunman away,that person would be a hero of mine and I would be glad that they did it,they would not be judged by me and I would be glad they did it and if I was on the Jury if it went to court I would be explaining why it is poetic justice and would do everything I could to make sure they were not in any kind of trouble. I might be for counseling for them though just because of the effects it can have on a person who kills even when justified.

[Nessa]

We are the bad guys too..my parents think only bad people go to hell...murderers..rapists etc..are they in for a shock if they don't change their thinking..

Also anyone who has hated has already committed murder in their hearts so its not just about not having a murderous bone in your body...

[abelcainsbrother]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

Having a right does not mean it's right tho

Abe, by 'blowing someone away'..is your aim to stop them or just kill them

Hypothetical question that cannot be answered,it depends on the situation however if you must shoot,it is best to shoot to kill,because they cannot try to sue you for hospital bills. It is a split second decision when a person is in a situation like that.This is not looking for somebody to shoot so don't think of it like that,this is for self defense.

[Nessa]

I believe a person has the right to have a gun for self defense of their life and family however I'm not driven by fear or for hoping to have to use it,I'm not blood thirsty just because I would blow somebody away if they came into my house trying to do harm and in America it would be poetic justice and it would not be murder in the eyes of God. Was it murder in the eyes of God when David slew Goliath? No,the bible even says there is a time to kill. We are not the bad guys some of you are trying to make us out to be,it is the criminals that are the bad guys. I think there is a cultural difference also and so it is hard to understand America and our right to bear arms.

Having a right does not mean it's right tho

Abe, by 'blowing someone away'..is your aim to stop them or just kill them

Hypothetical question that cannot be answered,it depends on the situation however if you must shoot,it is best to shoot to kill,because they cannot try to sue you for hospital bills. It is a split second decision when a person is in a situation like that.This is not looking for somebody to shoot so don't think of it like that,this is for self defense.

Uh, I would rather be sued than take a life..

[edwardmurphy]

Rick, I had this same analysis. Negative is having children in the house. I've covered that by hiding my handgun (the loaded one), where they cannot get to it or that they know that it's there. I also don't want a criminal to come in easily find it (when I'm not home). Even I can't get to it without some effort, even knowing where it is. The other thing has always been the cost - when do I ever have $500+ to blow on a handgun. Finally, I inherited an older pistol and the .357 is on permanent loan from my sister - who has another weapon. Offered these, I realized they might come in handy/hopefully NEVER to be needed. I HUGELY respect them - they make me nervous, as I'm not a gun guy, not used to handling them, didn't grow up with them around, not even for hunting. But I don't want to be defenseless and recognized that we were vulnerable, so I accepted them.

This concerns me.

If you aren't comfortable with your gun then how do you expect to successfully defend yourself with the thing? People who blunder around half awake and terrified waving unfamiliar handguns are likely to hurt someone, but it probably won't be the intruder. If you're going to have the thing in your house then take a gun safety class, learn how to clean and maintain it, and take it to gun to the range and fire it until it feels familiar and comfortable. And for your children's sake don't hide it, lock it up. Keep it in a safe. Make it literally impossible for them to stumble across it.

Second, you're still making an emotional argument rather than a data-driven one. The odds of your kid shooting himself are much, much higher than the odds of you stopping a prowler. Incidentally, this discussion led me to do a bit of research.
One study found that something like 30% of boys who found a gun pulled the trigger.

Third, a few posts back you pointed out that gun death stats were padded by suicides, as if gun control advocates were hiding that information or something. They're not. Most suicide attempts involving blades or pills are unsuccessful. Most attempts involving guns are successful. The facts don't change. Where there are guns, people die. As the number of guns goes up the number of deaths goes up as well. Period.

And finally, since you're still pushing an emotion-fueled self-defense argument, it's worth remembering crime is going down, home invasions are extremely rare, and armed civilians are more likely to die during an assault than unarmed civilians, and your gun is much, much more likely to kill someone that you love than it is to protect them.