Ten Commandment Monument removed

[Nessa]

Im not saying go ahead and twist scripture as many do. Just because people like to use scripture with evil intent...it does not mean we treat the bible as having primary contexts only

[abelcainsbrother]

Well, it was already there so why go after its removal?

They went for its removal, and won, because its placement violates the Constitution of Oklahoma.

The fact you feel a sense of satisfaction over its removal Ed (right?), shows that it means something.
Personally, I'm not tied to any particular statue and I didn't even know this one existed.

I agree with the decision, but it would be a stretch to say I'm basking in a sense of satisfaction. I don't care all that much about any statue either, but I strongly support the Constitutional separation between Church and State.

However, its proactive removal serves as a symbol that Oklahoma won't tolerate religion.
That there are those who won't be happy until any semblance of Christianity is eradicated.
And those who support such ideals will obviously be happy with its removal.

That's an absurd overreaction. Nobody is trying to eradicate Christianity. What's happening is that a few activists are pushing the courts to follow Constitutional law and stop allowing Christian symbols to be displayed in government buildings as if Christianity were recognized as the official state religion. The government of the United States is secular. The people are free to worship however they choose, and that very much includes Christians. Churches are still everywhere and still tax-exempt. Individuals can still put all of the Christian imagery they want on their private property. Politicians still relentlessly pander to Christian leaders and voters. And most importantly, nobody that I've ever heard of is attempting to change any of that.

BUT, ultimately, such displays a lack of tolerance and lack of sensitivity.
That, is sad don't you think? Sends a message that being American and Christian simply do not mix.
I didn't know America was a Seculocracy and as such intolerant towards anything other.
Must one be secular to be truly American?

Being American and being Christian don't mix because a statue was moved? Really? Last I looked 70% of the population of the United States Christian, as was the vast majority of our elected officials. The point here is that that fact doesn't change the fact that there is a Constitutional separation of Church and State. That's not just the law, it's a founding principle of our democracy. I understand how some Christians would resent losing special privileges, but trying to spin that as persecution is factually incorrect.

It's just lucky Oklahoma is dealing with Christians, right?
If that was a monument of the Koran, then I'm sure blood would be shed over its removal.
Definitely death threats to the judge and those involved.

When Oklahoma passed a Constitutional amendment banning Sharia law the Muslim response was to take them to court. Why would it be any different with a Muslim statue?

It's also ridiculous to argue that Islam has cornered the market on intolerance, violence, or extremism. Christianity provides plenty of all those things. Sure, Christian terrorism is much less common than Muslim terrorism, but that's less about religious differences and more about the fact that the conflict between Islam and the West is extremely asymmetric. I imagine that the terrorists would much rather drive us out of the Middle East with tank battalions and air strikes, but they can't so they use what they have. If the roles were reversed I expect we'd do the same.

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

[RickD]

None of the old covenant laws are valid anymore, that's the point of a new covenant
http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/old- ... enant.html

The law is no longer written in tablets, but in our hearts , something like that

Bingo! We have a winner!!! Correctamundo!

I'd fine tune that to be, they're valid... but when you enter into the new covenant as said would be of the heart in the OT, then we are simply free to just love God and each other in Christ (and these two things are the foundation of the 10 Commandments).

And adhering to the Sabbath in the 10 Commandments was about respecting God as rightful Lord of creation (this link to creation is found in the 10 Commandments passage). So ought we not do that?

Sure,
The sabbath command is about respecting God as THE ONE AND ONLY GOD. Israel was surrounded by polytheistic religions. And God wanted them to be separate. That's why He gave THEM the 10 commandments.

But as believers, we don't need to obey a specific sabbath law given to Israel, in order to know God is Lord. IT'S WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!

"So we ought not do that?"

For a moment, I thought Gman was posting again. Because that's the same argument he used to use. He'd say, "why wouldn't you want to take a day off of work".

Like that was all the sabbath law was about.

[abelcainsbrother]

Excuse Me, Pal, It's Christmastime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUcSrToVMG4

[RickD]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

Could you define what you mean by "Christian nation". Because, I think we're using two different definitions. I don't believe the US was ever a Christian nation. It was founded on some Judeo-Christian principles. But that doesn't make it Christian.

[RickD]

"In Christianity, some of the laws of Moses are still valid, and others are not (for an example of each, the law about murder and the law about tassels). How do we know which is valid and which is obsolete? The New Testament is the authority by which the old covenant is to be understood'

A sample from the article

Ok. So with that logic, you're saying that the NT must tell us the 10 commandments are for believers. Show me where the NT says believers are to obey the sabbath commandment, please.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

Could you define what you mean by "Christian nation". Because, I think we're using two different definitions. I don't believe the US was ever a Christian nation. It was founded on some Judeo-Christian principles. But that doesn't make it Christian.

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and our laws were based on the bible and the majority of Americans have been Christians in the past and even now and we see the evidence being removed a piece at a time.It is not about a Christian Theocracy but a Christian nation greatly influenced by Christianity. I think we agree more than you realize because you think I mean a Christian theocracy but I'm not meaning that and I'd be against it as the majority is and has always been against.Now sure we have been going down the wrong road for years now and can see the effects of it everywhere but America is a Christian nation. The whole idea for freedom comes from the freedom Jesus gave us all.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

Could you define what you mean by "Christian nation". Because, I think we're using two different definitions. I don't believe the US was ever a Christian nation. It was founded on some Judeo-Christian principles. But that doesn't make it Christian.

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and our laws were based on the bible and the majority of Americans have been Christians in the past and even now and we see the evidence being removed a piece at a time.It is not about a Christian Theocracy but a Christian nation greatly influenced by Christianity. I think we agree more than you realize because you think I mean a Christian theocracy but I'm not meaning that and I'd be against it as the majority is and has always been against.Now sure we have been going down the wrong road for years now and can see the effects of it everywhere but America is a Christian nation. The whole idea for freedom comes from the freedom Jesus gave us all.

I don't disagree that America was influenced by Christianity. And SOME of America's founding principles and laws were influenced by Christianity. But first and foremost, early Americans who left England, left to be free from the "Christianity" of England.

And next, some of the principles which were extremely important in the founding, and growing of this nation, were extremely UNBIBLICAL. For example, chattel slavery. The founding fathers owned slaves. Not quite the "Christian" thing to do.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:

You can try to down play it all you want to but it is proof this is a Christian nation. The fact it was removed does not change it.

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

Could you define what you mean by "Christian nation". Because, I think we're using two different definitions. I don't believe the US was ever a Christian nation. It was founded on some Judeo-Christian principles. But that doesn't make it Christian.

Do you like Atheists removing things like this ten commandments monument?It is atheists doing it and yet Christians just sit back and allow these kinds of judges to stay in power. It is Passivity that is not Christ-like.

[Nessa]

"In Christianity, some of the laws of Moses are still valid, and others are not (for an example of each, the law about murder and the law about tassels). How do we know which is valid and which is obsolete? The New Testament is the authority by which the old covenant is to be understood'

A sample from the article

Ok. So with that logic, you're saying that the NT must tell us the 10 commandments are for believers. Show me where the NT says believers are to obey the sabbath commandment, please.

Partly what kurieuo said but also there is the principal of setting aside time for God and having a day of rest.

It may not be as clear cut as the other nine commandments but I think its still something to be mindful of and observe. Its not just about spiritual rest. I believe its also about physical rest too. God designed our bodies and part of that is needing rest.

[abelcainsbrother]

I disagree. It's not a Christian nation. And I hope it never is. I hope it stays the way it was founded. As a nation free from an established religion. A nation where we are free to practice Christianity, or any other religion.

I don't want a theocracy. Part of what makes America great, is that we are free to practice the religion/belief of our choosing. Including atheism.

It's a free country. Not a Christian country.

It is an atheist myth Christians want a Christian theocracy. I don't want one and that is not what I'm saying.I am saying that this is and has always been a Christian nation and this ten commandment monument is proof. Atheists are trying to re-write history by removing evidence all the while denying it.

Could you define what you mean by "Christian nation". Because, I think we're using two different definitions. I don't believe the US was ever a Christian nation. It was founded on some Judeo-Christian principles. But that doesn't make it Christian.

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and our laws were based on the bible and the majority of Americans have been Christians in the past and even now and we see the evidence being removed a piece at a time.It is not about a Christian Theocracy but a Christian nation greatly influenced by Christianity. I think we agree more than you realize because you think I mean a Christian theocracy but I'm not meaning that and I'd be against it as the majority is and has always been against.Now sure we have been going down the wrong road for years now and can see the effects of it everywhere but America is a Christian nation. The whole idea for freedom comes from the freedom Jesus gave us all.

I don't disagree that America was influenced by Christianity. And SOME of America's founding principles and laws were influenced by Christianity. But first and foremost, early Americans who left England, left to be free from the "Christianity" of England.

And next, some of the principles which were extremely important in the founding, and growing of this nation, were extremely UNBIBLICAL. For example, chattel slavery. The founding fathers owned slaves. Not quite the "Christian" thing to do.

Yes,I agree but we've repented of that kind of slavery except exchanged it for another kind of slavery - socialism

[edwardmurphy]

Do you like Atheists removing things like this ten commandments monument?It is atheists doing it and yet Christians just sit back and allow these kinds of judges to stay in power.

Atheists did not remove the statue. They challenged the constitutionality of the statue's placement in court and they won. According to the Constitution of Oklahoma:

“No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.”

Is that not clear?

The Oklahoma Constitution, much like the US Constitution, is a secular document. The majority of Americans may be Christians, but the government is secular and it always has been. Public property is secular property. Period.

[abelcainsbrother]

Do you like Atheists removing things like this ten commandments monument?It is atheists doing it and yet Christians just sit back and allow these kinds of judges to stay in power.

Atheists did not remove the statue. They challenged the constitutionality of the statue's placement in court and they won. According to the Constitution of Oklahoma:

“No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.”

Is that not clear?

The Oklahoma Constitution, much like the US Constitution, is a secular document. The majority of Americans may be Christians, but the government is secular and it always has been. Public property is secular property. Period.

Just like I said it was atheists that had it removed. Nobody is arguing for a Christian theocracy and this is why you are not forced to be a Christian and have freedom because this is a Christian nation and always has been period.Don't forget to thank Jesus for the freedom you've been blessed by.