High school boots praying football coach

[melanie]

Haha says our resident klown....

[RickD]

I'm not sure I understand this argument:

He can't take a minute to pray after the game, because he's still on the job, and has a responsibility to take care of the students/players.

Would you complain if he was on the clock, and took a minute to take the Browns to the Superbowl?

[Philip]

Yes, Melanie, and it is a circus because of WHOM? The school district responded to ONE complaint. Now, prayers have been held at sporting events before and after, at graduations, etc., since America was founded. And NOW, suddenly (last several years), that gets to be a big stinking deal - WHY? This is wrong - whatever the legal opinions. It means the vast majority - even those who are not Christians, have long been fine with it. Also, it has been ruled that Christian clubs CAN meet on school grounds. Students CAN meet and pray at a flagpole - AS LONG AS it is not compulsory, that it is not officially run by the school.

Philip wrote: After the game is OVER, and AS LONG AS the prayer audience is only those invited to and thus join in VOLUNTARILY, I truly do not see the problem.

Edward: After the game is over a high school coach still has supervisory responsibilities. He's on the clock until the last kid is released to his parents.

So, those going to these prayers are all little kids who have to be handed over to their mommies and daddies? Bullcrap! As soon as a game is over and the team is DISMISSED, that is when the coach's responsibilities end! NO coach is responsible for seeing that the kids all get picked up by their parents - not in high school. Those kids that attended those prayers did so voluntarily!

Philip wrote: And what about those who might be immensely offended that the coach can't say a voluntary prayer that is in no way compulsory to attend? What about THEIR sensibilities and right not to be offended???!!!

Edward: Nobody has the right not to be offended.

But that's what this is supposedly about, that someone is going to supposedly be FORCED to hear a prayer.

Edward: That's not what this is about. The law says that the government can't give the appearance of favoring one religion over another. When a coach publicly prays on the field while he's on the clock he's violating the law and opening the district up to legal action.

What moron is going to think the school district or government (you know, the same government that has "In God We Trust" on our currency?) is endorsing a voluntary prayer, attended voluntarily. Does the district advertise this opportunity on its website, send out flyers, make announcements over the intercom. NO one is THAT stupid, to believe such a thing. If they are, then they are going to constantly offended simply in their day-to-day life, business functions, all kinds of places they will hear people say spiritual and OTHER things that they may or may not agree with, many that might offend them - and so, if they don't like it, just like the post-game prayers - they don't have to stay there to listen.

Philip wrote: What about a Christian kid who is made to read books that he finds offensive because it's a part of the course? Ban the book? Threaten the teacher who introduced the book? Of COURSE not! Offending the sensibilities of those of faith is routine and almost never even a consideration.

Edward: That kid can request an alternative assignment, or enroll in a Christian school, or be home schooled.

Oh, so the kid who is offended will not have the school district stand up for him over something he finds offensive - he's got to go make a big stinking deal out of it by himself or with his parents' help. Notice the difference? The school is often not worried over questionable materials that are likely to offend many Christians - and so they don't typically worry about it. But they are HYPER vigilant over any perceived religious talk on school grounds. So, a kid who encounters objectionable materials has to go to a PRIVATE ($$$) school???!!! His parents have to find a way to take a breadwinner out of work so the kid can be home schooled? What planet are you on? Point is, schools don't worry much about such things - but they DO worry about religious speech because of lawsuit happy morons, gutless school district officials, and legal advice to avoid such situations at all costs.

Edward: If he's bound and determined to be offended then he will be, but people are generally more reasonable than you're giving them credit for.

Bingo! Unless you plan on living your life in a cave, you are sometimes going to be offended by people's speech and actions. It's why you have to learn to not make a big deal out of every little offense - HELLO, atheist kid offended by a simple prayer! Ah, but SOME people are not so very reasonable, are they. No, they call the ACLU or threaten the school district with a lawsuit. I mean, how dumb are people???!!! I don't believe in Zeus, and some coach after a game wants to have a voluntary prayer made in the name of Zeus? I'll leave. Don't have to stay. Did anyone HAVE to stay just because this happened to be the coach leading the prayer? Of course NOT! If people view that as somehow the government or school district endorsing a particular religion, they really have no common sense! And this lack of common sense is killing freedom to express certain kinds of speech that WILL NOT HARM ANYONE NOT FORCED TO LISTEN TO IT! So, like I would say to anyone offended by some TV program's comment - DON'T LISTEN TO IT/CHANGE the channel (go elsewhere).

Philip wrote: But there's just nothing more offensive than hearing the words God, Our Father, or Jesus, is there???!!!

Edward: I have no issue with the words "God, Our Father, or Jesus," but the endless insistence that enforcing the separation of Church and State is anti-Christian persecution gets pretty irritating. It's not a question of why whoever is so easily offended by whatever, it's a question of Constitutional law.

So, Ed, where in the constitution does it say a person cannot pray in a public building or place? Please enlighten me.

Philip wrote: Last bit of my rant: Spiritual expression is a form of speech, is it not? So, whatever happened to freedom of speech and the right to express oneself? All manner of porn passes that test, but just say "Jesus" and BAM! They're ready to shut you down.

Edward: As Nessa pointed out, there are restrictions on speech at work. The coach knew that, and he initially agreed to stop praying on the field. He started up again after talking to some folks from the Liberty Institute.

That's because he is not an attorney who specializes in constitutional law. Once he realized that there are solid legal grounds for his post-game prayer, he continued. He wants to test this - to which I applaud him! If this were not constitutional, then you'd see no Bible in a courtroom, no Deity to declare trust in on our currency, congressional oath of office ("... so help me God."), presidents (including Obama) swearing the oath of office with their hands on a Bible, the Supreme Court (eastern side) with the carved relief depicting Moses with the Ten Commandments, etc.

Edward: Add it all up and it looks a lot like conservative Christian activists attempting to manufacture a controversy.*

And there SHOULD be a controversy if a person can be on public grounds and cannot make a non-compulsory prayer. This is saying that centuries of practice and belief by Americans should not be declared unacceptable - which I find unacceptable! Now, are their culture warriors and political hacks not jumping into the fray? Sadly, of course!

Edward: Now about that Jesus/porn comparison - you put them together, not me - I challenge you to name a single place or situation in the entire history of the United States where porn can be legally possessed/distributed/displayed but talking about Jesus would get you in legal trouble...

This was only meant to indicate the selectivity of what is considered offensive speech - not referencing schools or public places. But some materials are morally offensive in what they advocate that are clearly common in schools. Maybe not to the level of porn, but nonetheless.

[B. W.]

Yes, Melanie, and it is a circus because of WHOM? The school district responded to ONE complaint. Now, prayers have been held at sporting events before and after, at graduations, etc., since America was founded. And NOW suddenly that gets to be a big stinking deal - WHY? This is wrong - whatever the legal opinions. It means the vast majority - even those who are not Christians, have long been fine with it. Also, it has been ruled that Christian clubs CAN meet on school grounds. Students CAN meet and pray at a flagpole - AS LONG AS it is not compulsory, that it is not officially run by the school.

Yes, history repeats itself. I while back I spoke about how the left makes laws to hides behind and to make legit the destruction of christian rights. Such laws all lead to persecution.

So you have the school broad making laws that 30 to 200 year ago would never have seen the light of day against prayer.

Look at the link quoted below...

ANTI-JEWISH LEGISLATION IN PREWAR GERMANY
1933–1934
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005681

The first wave of legislation, from 1933 to 1934, focused largely on limiting the participation of Jews in German public life. The first major law to curtail the rights of Jewish citizens was the "Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service" of April 7, 1933, according to which Jewish and "politically unreliable" civil servants and employees were to be excluded from state service. The new Civil Service Law was the German authorities' first formulation of the so-called Aryan Paragraph, a kind of regulation used to exclude Jews (and often by extension other "non-Aryans") from organizations, professions, and other aspects of public life.

In April 1933, German law restricted the number of Jewish students at German schools and universities. In the same month, further legislation sharply curtailed "Jewish activity" in the medical and legal professions. Subsequent laws and decrees restricted reimbursement of Jewish doctors from public (state) health insurance funds. The city of Berlin forbade Jewish lawyers and notaries to work on legal matters, the mayor of Munich disallowed Jewish doctors from treating non-Jewish patients, and the Bavarian Interior Ministry denied admission of Jewish students to medical school.

At the national level, the Nazi government revoked the licenses of Jewish tax consultants; imposed a 1.5 percent quota on admission of "non-Aryans" to public schools and universities; fired Jewish civilian workers from the army; and, in early 1934, forbade Jewish actors to perform on the stage or screen.

Local governments also issued regulations that affected other spheres of Jewish life: in Saxony, Jews could no longer slaughter animals according to ritual purity requirements, effectively preventing them from obeying Jewish dietary laws.

We haven't gotten to that lever yet, but if the Ed Murphy's have their way, we will be there.

Let's reshape the above article

The first wave of legislation of anti-Christian laws, focused largely on limiting the participation of Christians in American public life. The first major law to curtail the rights of Christian citizens was "Removal of public prayer”

Next enact laws and policy in business, public, and state policies to which Christian and "conservative" employees, are to be fired from state, business, public service if they show any Christian symbols, speech, and conduct during work environment time. Nativity scenes forbidden, and saying Merry Christmas is forbidden in any public area.

The new Laws based upon policy from state, and privet policy sets up the authority to exclude Christians from organizations, professions, and other aspects of public life such as refusal provide marriage services to elements of society once deemed deviant. Laws and or policy or ordinances that exclude Christians form owning property for new churches by local codes/ordinances, enact fines for use of privet homes for bible study groups, forbid the display crosses on grave sites, and policies that forbid any Christian thought and expression in public demands, by policy to be removed or employees will be fired. (Muslim, Satanist, Atheist, Humanism expressions are exempted).

At the national level, the Federal government seeks to revoke the licenses of Christian businesses for not providing abortion on demand from Christian organizations, business, and individuals per Obama Care. Public schools and universities fire Christian workers for any hint or display of Christian faith. The US Military seeks to purge Christians from the military.

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/04/18 ... -military/

Though not of the same tone as the Nazi’s had for the Jews in 1933-1939 in making their laws and policies to go after the Jews. In the USA the left is eerily following the same pattern with a slower and more methodical method.

The big answer is why?

What have Christians done to deserve this disrespect?
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[edwardmurphy]

This story is getting more interesting now.

High school football coach on leave for praying attends game, prays with spectators
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/30/hi ... rays-with/

Satanists were invited to attend the game.

How irritating...

All the guy was asked to do is stop publicly praying while on the clock. Instead he chooses to hook up with an out-of-town conservative Christian activist group and try to make a national controversy out of it. And then he says this:

"I’m willing to take this as far as it goes to defend the rights of the Constitution, to the end," Kennedy said. "If you believe in something, you stand up."

What a bunch of crap. I thought he believed in his football players, but he chooses to ditch them and create this huge, distracting, divisive mess in the middle of their season. What a jerk.

Meanwhile, rather than just quietly approaching the administration, or quietly calling the ACLU, or quietly bringing it up at a school board meeting, some kid opts to call some out-of-town Satanist and asks them to do a big Satanist production on the field in order to "clarify the policy." Again, disingenuous silliness. There's no reason whatsoever to open with the nuclear option, but that's what he did. Silly, self-righteous kid...

I feel for all of the reasonable people who are going to get caught in the middle of this ridiculous mess.

[edwardmurphy]

Philip - I gave you a link to the school's statement. It has a response to pretty much everything that you wrote.

B.W. - I'm sorry that your imaginary world is so scary, but you can take comfort in the fact that it exists only in your poor, fevered mind.

[Philip]

Ed: How irritating...

All the guy was asked to do is stop publicly praying while on the clock. Instead he chooses to hook up with an out-of-town conservative Christian activist group and try to make a national controversy out of it.

Sure, Ed, "ALL" he was asked to do is to cease doing something he feels should be a fundamental right - the VERY SAME right afforded vast millions in this country over the past 200 years. I wouldn't call that a small thing. As what he DID really shouldn't be no big deal - just as it hasn't been since the founding. He doesn't think it is right to try to publicly marginalize the speech of Christians aiming such speech at ears who WANT to hear it! And this "Christian activist group" SHOULD make a big deal out of an issue they see as fundamental to the free speech of Christians in public. It's just the step before virtually ANYTHING said by a Christian is deemed hate speech and worthy of fines and imprisonment!

Ed: And then he says this:

A bunch of disingenuous garbage... wrote:
"I’m willing to take this as far as it goes to defend the rights of the Constitution, to the end," Kennedy said. "If you believe in something, you stand up."

So, He shouldn't stand up to something he thinks is wrong? Note, also, that he has put himself in the line of fire at considerable cost - he was FIRED!

Ed: What a bunch of crap. I thought he believed in his football players, but he chooses to ditch them and create this huge, distracting, divisive mess in the middle of their season. What a jerk.

Ed, you are so biased I can literally see the foam in your mouth coming across the web! WHO ditched WHOM???!!! Did HE quit? Did HE resign? Who decided to suddenly make what he had already been doing - without a peep from the school officials - until some gutless wonder makes a complaint - a FIREABLE offense? SCHOOL OFFICIALS, that's WHO! THEY made it a big deal. And so HE didn't quit his team - they were taken from him. There are some things that are far more important than just coaching a team to be good at sports. He's modeled for them standing up for what you think is right, even at a considerable cost.

Here's what I want someone to explain to me - why, WHY is praying a voluntary prayer for people who WANT to be there and to hear it so dangerous? WHO exactly is that hurting? He can't SAY what's on his mind and heart simply because it has a spiritual component? WHY is spiritual speech (to those who WANT to hear it) a problem? And why should it be any more restricted than any other kind of non-harmful speech. ESPECIALLY considering that anyone who didn't care for it could leave? What, is He an ISIS commando spewing hate-filled directives to kill? WHAT??? Please do tell!

[B. W.]

Philip - I gave you a link to the school's statement. It has a response to pretty much everything that you wrote.

B.W. - I'm sorry that your imaginary world is so scary, but you can take comfort in the fact that it exists only in your poor, fevered mind.

Th Policies and laws are there. Friend of mine was just fired for her Christian beliefs for the reason so stated. Laws are enacted, policies too, and you Ed hide behind these on this very forum and your own words bear witness to the truth I pointed out concerning laws and polices...

So school prayer was not banned. and this did not happened?

Engel v. Vitale on June 25, 1962, and Abington School District v. Schempp on June 17, 1963 – the Supreme Court declared school-sponsored prayer and Bible readings unconstitutional...

My imagination back that back in July 2015 - that... Christian schools wants the Supreme Court to strike down an Obamacare mandate that they provide health plans that enable access to abortion-inducing pills, the latest religious nonprofits to challenge the law's mandate....

or back in 2014 Fairfax county in Virginia county takes aim at home Bible studies, freedom of assembly...

Now you must answer me...

Why do you desire to rid be Christianity?

What have we done to deserve your disrespect from your superior tolerant ideology?
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[edwardmurphy]

Great outrage Phil, but your facts aren't factual. He wasn't fired. He was asked to stop publicly praying on the clock because doing so violates the Constitution - specific SCOTUS decisions are cited in the press release that you don't seem willing to read. He continued to pray publicly while on the clock, so they put him on administrative leave. He's still getting paid and he's welcome to come back to work if he promises to stop praying publicly while on the clock.

Also, it's hysterical that you're talking about the foam coming out of my mouth. I'm irritated that crap like this keeps happening. Meanwhile you howl with rage over a controversy that was transparently manufactured just to make you howl with rage. Are you okay with getting manipulated like this?

B.W. - Knowing your tendency to spot a sinister agenda in the most innocuous circumstances imaginable I suspect that there was more to your friend's story.

Regarding school prayer - yes, school-SPONSORED prayer was banned. Students can still pray on their own time, prayer groups can still be organized, and school employees can still participate or even run them - provided it's during non-academic time. In other words, Christians have lost the freedom to ignore the Constitutional separation of Church and State whenever it suits them to do so, but their right to worship as they see fit - on their own time - hasn't changed a bit.

Regarding Fairfax, Virginia, if history is any guide if I research your claim I'll find that either the claim is false or that there was a conflict, it was resolved, and Christians in Fairfax County are free to hold Bible Study. Maybe I'll look into it later.

[JurassicTerrorist]

Only in America......
What a circus

Indeed... And this is coming from a person that doesn't live in America.

[abelcainsbrother]

The Atheists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phtP73p5_F0

[edwardmurphy]

I listened to about 10 seconds of the song. During that 10 seconds some clown claimed that little boys weren't permitted to pray at school. That's not true, he's a liar, his song is garbage, and if this is how he typically behaves then he's a piss-poor representative of the All-Mighty Creator of the Universe.

Seriously, what is it with conservative Christian activists lying in order to make a point? Is lying no longer a sin? Do they truly feel so vulnerable that they think misrepresenting the facts is the only way they can win the argument? If they truly have faith then why do they feel the need to argue in the first place? It's pathetic.

[abelcainsbrother]

I listened to about 10 seconds of the song. During that 10 seconds some clown claimed that little boys weren't permitted to pray at school. That's not true, he's a liar, his song is garbage, and if this is how he typically behaves then he's a piss-poor representative of the All-Mighty Creator of the Universe.

Seriously, what is it with conservative Christian activists lying in order to make a point? Is lying no longer a sin? Do they truly feel so vulnerable that they think misrepresenting the facts is the only way they can win the argument? If they truly have faith then why do they feel the need to argue in the first place? It's pathetic.

Up until the 1960's prayer was teacher led or sometimes the teacher would allow a student to lead the prayer. They would pray,say the pledge and then read passages from the bible every morning.This is what Christians are talking about. I think it is funny you think it is good to remove anything Christian yet at the same time act like it is'nt happening. Come out and pray. for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqEb5zXqqx0

[Philip]

For the record, I don't want ANYONE in an official capacity or as designated BY THE SCHOOL to lead prayers or spiritual study DURING school. As long as any such prayers or discussions are entirely voluntary and not held during classroom time - say at lunch or before or after school - then I don't see any problem with them being held on school grounds. And if teachers want to attend such sessions, that is fine as well - even if they sometimes lead them - as long as their is no official sanctioning or oversight and such groups are meeting entirely independent and voluntary.

The argument that this coach was somehow leading prayers while he was still functioning in an official capacity as coach is beyond ludicrous! IF there is any question, there is a VERY simple solution. As soon as the team is released to leave, all the coach should have to say is: "OK, guys, team dismissed. And anyone wishing to remain for our group prayer, please meet at X location, as we'll begin in 5 minutes. And if you decline to attend that is totally fine. As this is completely voluntary and per your personal sensibilities, it is entirely up to whatever your personal wishes."

How difficult would it be for those who want to leave or have no part a prayer session to simply leave? This is so incredibly simple that it's just common sense. And both groups of people are free to do whichever they freely desire to. No school district crapola, no lawyers and lawsuits, no big hoopla. Problem solved! If you don't agree, please tell me why - and with good reasons and not just your subjective opinion.

[abelcainsbrother]

For the record, I don't want ANYONE in an official capacity or as designated BY THE SCHOOL to lead prayers or spiritual study DURING school. As long as any such prayers or discussions are entirely voluntary and not held during classroom time - say at lunch or before or after school - then I don't see any problem with them being held on school grounds. And if teachers want to attend such sessions, that is fine as well - even if they sometimes lead them - as long as their is no official sanctioning or oversight and such groups are meeting entirely independent and voluntary.

The argument that this coach was somehow leading prayers while he was still functioning in an official capacity as coach is beyond ludicrous! IF there is any question, there is a VERY simple solution. As soon as the team is released to leave, all the coach should have to say is: "OK, guys, team dismissed. And anyone wishing to remain for our group prayer, please meet at X location, as we'll begin in 5 minutes. And if you decline to attend that is totally fine. As this is completely voluntary and per your personal sensibilities, it is entirely up to whatever your personal wishes."

How difficult would it be for those who want to leave or have no part a prayer session to simply leave? This is so incredibly simple that it's just common sense. And both groups of people are free to do whichever they freely desire to. No school district crapola, no lawyers and lawsuits, no big hoopla. Problem solved! If you don't agree, please tell me why - and with good reasons and not just your subjective opinion.

OK that is fine but I believe teacher led prayer and bible reading should never have been removed from Public Schools and it was removed the same way liberals always get their way the Supreme Court,NOT by the will of the people. It is no different than how same sex marriage was forced on us. Liberals always have to use the courts and go against the will of the people to get their way. They know that the American People will not vote for or accept their ideas but the shocking thing is Christians who are the majority just sitting back and taking it,which is another reason I'm sceptical about America's future politically and am fed up about politics. Christians just sit there and complain and fuss about it but not one of these government politicians is voted out of office for allowing these kinds of laws. It is a Christian problem and until the church changes nothing is going to change no matter who is in power.If Christians were so concerned about it they would make sure every politician that is responsible for allowing these kinds of laws were voted out of office.