Killing in Self Defense

[Kurieuo]

You know, I think there's a bit of self-examining some need to do in order to understand why this talk is getting under their skin so much. There's a lot of hairs standing on end and there shouldn't be.

To be clear, again, I don't think self defense is wrong at all. Even if you kill another person to save yourself.
Perhaps my language has been unclear, but for the Christian to defend just their self alone, I don't see it as a matter of what is right/wrong.

AND, that is why I pose two questions and each while similar are drastically different.
The first, is whether killing in self-defense for one's self is justified. I'd response yes, it can be.
The second, is whether it is acceptable for a Christian to kill in self-defense for one's self. I think it is right for the Christian to defend themselves, but I'd encourage them to look to something higher.

As I see matters, there is more going on for us Christians than just "right" or "wrong", "justified" or "unjustified".
And everyone, especially Christians, all too often focus on "is this right" or "is that right".
BUT, if that's what God focused on, then as all here should now, we're all damned.

Rather, it isn't a matter of what is right or wrong, but after Christ who is our Lord a matter of what is more graceful and loving. It's easy when you throw your family into the situation or defending others, because it's loving to protect.

When it's just you vs them however, and you're gripped by fear or perhaps angered in a self-righteous indignation i.e., "how dare they break into your home!", then grace and love go out the door. Really, does it not? And that's what ruled that home owner when he shot and kill one of those teenagers. Justified perhaps, but not at all loving.

So of course, you have every right, and indeed are in the right to protect yourself. They're the aggressor and they're responsible for their actions and consequences. But, this is to make such into an issue of right and wrong. Christ wasn't about right and wrong, but rather love and grace.

Yes, your life is important. But, our actions should always be seasoned with grace and come from a place of love. You know, you might decide that more good for Christ would come from your living. But, at the same time, we mustn't fear for our lives so much that we'd not die for Christ.

To not die for Christ isn't wrong, but likewise if Christ didn't die for us either then there would be no wrong in him deciding not to. Thank Christ, however, that he laid down his life for us... because He loved us and preferred grace rather than what was right and just.

If my point isn't coming across, and this is still being seen as a matter or pro-gun rights or the like, then you can relax. Because, there isn't much else I have got to say now.

[Storyteller]

This is something I've thought about, a lot.

Killing someone, that's huge.
I always thought no, never, I just couldnt take a life.
Now, I think I would kill someone to protect someone else, my daughter definitely, in a heartbeat, and deal with the aftermath. And beg forgiveness.

To protect myself? Not a chance. That makes me somehow more significant, have more right to live than others. I would rather die forgiving than needing it.

Cant really explain it.

[crochet1949]

Lots of thought provoking comments -- the Acca Indians and the missionaries -- they went to share the Gospel of salvation -- they knew they, personally would be in heaven upon death. To kill any of those Indians would have meant instant eternal hell for them. A warning shot in the air to potentially scare off an attack, yes, but to intentionally kill one of them -- no.

If I were to come across someone viciously attacking another person -- try to stop the attacker -- yes -- kill the person? not if I can prevent it. Because I know I'm going to heaven if I get attacked back in the process -- but I don't know the spiritual status of the attacker or the person being attacked. Everyone has a heaven or hell in their future whether they choose to acknowledge it or not.

We Also have a survival instinct. Just because I Have a gun for 'protection' doesn't mean I have to use it to kill. I can shoot to injure.

However --if I'm ever in a situation like has recently happened in this country -- if my taking a stand for believing in God costs me my life -- so be it. If my family members face death because of my belief -- either I renounce or they die? Well -- they know my belief in God -- and we'd probably both be killed Anyway in that kind of situation.

There's a Christian movie out that I just saw -- Do You Believe -- various circumstances come up -- am I willing to risk my life to save someone elses'. Do I Really believe in God and do I Really believe that I'll be with Christ for eternity if I decide to save someone Else from danger. Am I willing to stand for God even if it means my marriage or job.

But -- killing in self-defense -- it's probably justifiable in the law. It has to be proven to be self-defense, though.

A person who joins the military -- is it morally okay to have to kill the enemy -- some soldiers have gone into battle zones and never had to shoot at a person. And we have LOTS of wounded warriors -- there's more danger in being blown up or badly wounded from explosions. And some soldiers come back suffering from PTSD for the rest of their lives.

Life isn't going to get any easier -- the closer we come to Christ's return the harder life will be. Hard decisions to make. Are we willing to take a stand for God.

[melanie]

Great post crochet.
It's a hard question to answer.
We don't know what lies ahead, what we are left with is hypotheticals.
Would I kill to save myself, I would hope not. Would I be a sitting duck, no way.
Would I protect my children??
Without question.
Can instinctual survival in a situation change quickly to revenge or retribution when anger sets in, I think too easily.
A jury or judge can convict or acquit based on evidence but God is our judge and he knows with what motivation we reacted.
It's not barbaric to defend our family and ourselves and it's not pansy or unrealistic to hold onto the gospel of peace that Jesus taught.
Heroes come in all sizes. Sometimes in might and fight and sometimes in peace and defeat.

[RickD]

Crochet1949,

I just noticed your name says "crochet", as in making fabric with a hooked needle.

I always thought your name was crotchety1949.

It's a good thing nobody knew that I was thinking that!

[Philip]

We Also have a survival instinct. Just because I Have a gun for 'protection' doesn't mean I have to use it to kill. I can shoot to injure.

Yes, that would be great IF possible. It works great in THE MOVIES The ONLY time you EVER fire at another human being should ONLY be when you are under imminent threat from someone you have determined is clearly or likely armed and is already coming at you - certainly if they have broken in to your house. The problem is, you may well have only the briefest of moments to shoot. An armed attacker determined to use his weapon will likely not hesitate - as that is the mentality of a person violent or crazy enough to come at you with a weapon. And shooting an armed attacker charging toward you, in the arm or leg, would, for most, be the luckiest of shots. It also would defeat the purpose of responding with deadly force to begin with - to immediately and decisively stop the attacker from potentially killing or greatly injuring you. And a mere wounding in an appendage may well not stop them. IF you can, and you have the time, or before a home breaker is already inside, a warning shot MIGHT suffice.

Remember, a decision to pull a trigger in self defense doesn't mean that YOU are the one that wants to kill. But a determined, charging armed ATTACKER is forcing you to do whatever necessary to save a life - whether YOURS OR YOUR FAMILY'S. The attacker likely wants somebody dead - so, who's that going to be? But, yes, using a gun should be your very last protective measure and ONLY in one specific scenario (above). Shooting unnecessarily at someone outside, or at someone you can clearly see, a person fleeing - these I see as wrong and unnecessary.

[crochet1949]

RickD.

I use 'crochet1949' because I Do crochet --using yarn and a crochet hook. And I was born in 1949 -- you can do the math.

Crocketing as in making all sorts of things / blankets / lap robes / pot holders / shawls / a couple of sweaters some years ago. Small items such as decorative pot holders / wash cloths are a nice change to the bigger items. And I usually have a couple of projects going at the same time.

And, yes, at times I probably Can be 'crochety', also.

And, I Also like a good discussion on most any topic.

[crochet1949]

Phillip

Actually I don't like guns. My husband feels differently. He has a shotgun. I shot a gun once Many years ago --- it nearly knocked me over when I fired it. IF I needed to defend myself -- and had a rifle / shotgun I'd do better using it as a club to lunge at a person with to hit them -- not trying to fire it.

I don't like guns in a house for the simple reason that so often the innocent person gets hurt accidentally or killed. Like the family who's son was away at college. He decided to surprise the family by coming home at an unusual time. Unfortunately it was late at night and he was trying to be quiet getting into the house. His Dad heard a noise downstairs and had a hand gun in his upstairs room. He shot at the 'intruder' and killed him. And then was horrified to find it was his son.

We live in a small town area where there's practically no serious crime. We hear about it on the News, but haven't experienced anything like that locally. We're in Texas -- not much goes on around here.

I guess, though, that as a believer -- I'd still be concerned about actually killing someone -- even if I were being attacked -- I'd be trying to get away or maybe start talking to the person. Then, again, I've never been in that situation to know What I'd Really do.

[Philip]

Crotchet, that fellow who tragically shot his son - broke rule number one of firearms - NEVER, EVER shoot at what you cannot clearly see. He should have at least suspected it might be his son and should not have fired without know for certain it was someone else. Sounds like he panicked.

I do know people in Texas, and a great percentage of them are exceptionally well armed. ONLY a crazy, druggy, or intentionally violent robber would ever break in if they knew someone was likely home. Really, it would be akin to risking likely death. Heck, I broke down in a rural area one time, at the edge of dark, on a long dirt road in which there were only a few homes with long, dark driveways. And while I could see the house lights, I didn't dare risk scaring someone out in the middle of nowhere by knocking on their door - or even going up the drive. There are so many people who might shoot first, ask questions later. So, I walked a LONG way to a main road. I was so desperate that my friend and I hitchhiked a ride (this was 30 years ago). Yep, someone comes in while you're home, 1) you better know they aren't someone that lives there and 2) expect the worst!

[crochet1949]

Philip
I'm going to take a moment to correct your spelling -- it's crochet NOT crotchet.

We've been in south central area for around 30 years -- some areas are huge and others very small. Except that Texas has the distinction of once having been part of Mexico. But That is a whole nuther subject.

I can picture Tennessee or Arkansas / some of those other southern states -- shoot first, ask questions later.

I'm actually an Iowa 'girl'. Some of my brother-in-laws up There are big fans of fire arms. Guess it just depends on a persons personal preferences.

Walking to a main road Anywhere is a good idea -cause These Days -- ya just never know who's smoking what out in the country. A gas station should be a safe place.