Cruel Logic

[Kenny]

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?


Ken

Would you sacrifice love? Take away choice and love is taken away too.

You are not merely asking to live the life of an automaton for 80 years, you are asking to live it for eternity.

Why does living as an automaton for 80 years mean you would have to live that way for eternity?

Ken

[Kenny]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

[EssentialSacrifice]

ken wrote:
That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

It is your free will that determines your fate in heavenly regards. If you choose not to follow God's will, then you choose, by your free will, to abandon His and thereby also His eternal abode (heaven). Heaven is a place where sin cannot abide, either in it's own form or contained within an individual.

God's will is His desire. He desires we emulate Him for our best way of life. He does not send us to hell if we don't live up to that commitment. We send ourselves to hell in the knowledge we transgress against our God willfully and have no repentance in our heart.

You have no repentance in your heart and so feel comfortable saying God sends you to hell when in fact it is you and the decisions you have the free will to make. God would never send His child to hell. His unrepentant children will surely send themselves by their use of a selfish personal free will.

Follow God's will, no matter how shabbily, with repentance in your heart and gain eternal communion with Him. Follow your will exclusively, without God, and remain in that condition and place without God with all the other's who have decided the same for all eternity.

Hell is that place where God is not. Heaven is that place where sin is not. Your choice to make as freely, as willfully as you desire. You choose your own consequences Ken, God does not do that for/to you.

[Nessa]

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?


Ken

Would you sacrifice love? Take away choice and love is taken away too.

You are not merely asking to live the life of an automaton for 80 years, you are asking to live it for eternity.

Why does living as an automaton for 80 years mean you would have to live that way for eternity?

Ken

So if you lived as an automaton on earth then how does suddenly getting free will work in eternity?

You'd be back to square one of either still being an automaton - you would be programmed to follow God and live with him....or have free will to stay or go. And the only other option is hell.

[Storyteller]

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Hell, for me, is the total and utter absence of God, and love. Made all the more hellish by glimpsing what may have been, with one little leap of faith.

[Philip]

People deny Christ but rhetorically ask, "Why would a good God send me to hell?" Well, first, WE do not get to make the available options for our eternal destinations - GOD does. So, His options are two: Heaven/Jesus or the isolation, bleakness and suffering punishment of hell.

Now, some love to think of one day going to heaven ("to be with mom and dad," etc.), but as they want absolutely NOTHING to do with God here, detest His ways, or many of them, then why, WHY, pray tell, would they want to go to and eternal place where the MOST important aspect of it will be that we will be in God's presence and continuously worship Him? Would that not be hell to a person who doesn't want anything to do with God? Also, those that want nothing to do with God - on whatever level - they are the sources for much of the collective misery on earth. Would God let REBELS into heaven, who would only drag that misery into that ETERNAL Place of Peace, in which there will be NO more tears or fears? NO! So, God is protecting those who love Him from those who won't ever.

And, of course, many think if they only knew for CERTAIN that God exists, that Heaven and hell are real, that THEN they would embrace God. But Jesus says they would not! Look at Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus - in which we learn that is not the case, as those who even see a "man" return from the dead (Jesus!) will still not believe/have faith/want to follow Him. So, God will give people at least part of what they want (NO Jesus), plus what they don't (eternal punishment). But, again, God allowed for the choice and for the eternal consequences tied to each. WE don't get to choose those.

[RickD]

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Hell, for me, is the total and utter absence of God, and love. Made all the more hellish by glimpsing what may have been, with one little leap of faith.

Storyteller,

Is God omnipresent?

Just a thought. I used to think that hell is the absence of God. But I'm not so sure.

[Kurieuo]

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Yes, it is a place of torture and agony.
Yes, God does ultimately create the place.
Yes, Satan, his angels and those without Christ are there.

However, where we would differ with God designing and creating Hell specifically as a place of torture (like a torture chamber of sorts) to specifically punish souls for eternity. If God did this, then I'd still disagree with you that this takes away our free choice in our world (since God has withdrawn himself sufficiently enough for people to be able to bury a knowledge of God and ignore His existence if they so desire). However, it does bring God's loving nature into question.

Rather, I see hell as a necessary place if God is to rightfully reign over all creation.
Those who do not want God, who reject God, or cannot be accepted without God impugning His own holiness, God's goodness, God's purity, must necessarily be cast out.
Souls will be tortured for eternity because God will withdraw Himself as much as possible and give them a world without Himself reigning in it.

Consider some serial child rapist and torturer of hundreds of children in this life.
What would you have a good and loving God do with such?
Accept, embrace and welcome such into His kingdom?
Or should justice be meted out and evil dealt with?
If such had their way, they would probably love to just rape and torture God Himself for eternity.
Such a person doesn't love God, and clearly some punishment is in order as a matter of justice on behalf of those he committed evil against... so what would you have God do?

[Philip]

Yes, Satan, his angels and those without Christ are there.

Um, not YET, they're not.

[Philip]

Storyteller,

Is God omnipresent?

Just a thought. I used to think that hell is the absence of God. But I'm not so sure.

Wow, I'd never much thought about that paradox. So, if an attribute of hell is a lack of God's presence... Hmmm

Well, Revelation 14:10 tells of the torment of the wicked in the presence of the Lamb. And, "He fills all things with His presence" (Colossians 1:17); "upholds everything by the word of His power" (Hebrews 1:3); "He is FAR from the wicked" (Proverbs 15:29) . Perhaps, undoubtedly, the BLESSINGS of God are absent in hell and/or those in hell are unable to see or sense His omnipresence - well, other than God's terrible wrath.

Weird, without context, one talks of God being everywhere/present before every THING, ALL at ONCE, it almost could be misunderstood (by a non-Christian/non Scripturally literate one) as pantheism.

[Kenny]

ken wrote:
That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

It is your free will that determines your fate in heavenly regards. If you choose not to follow God's will, then you choose, by your free will, to abandon His and thereby also His eternal abode (heaven). Heaven is a place where sin cannot abide, either in it's own form or contained within an individual.

God's will is His desire. He desires we emulate Him for our best way of life. He does not send us to hell if we don't live up to that commitment. We send ourselves to hell in the knowledge we transgress against our God willfully and have no repentance in our heart.

You have no repentance in your heart and so feel comfortable saying God sends you to hell when in fact it is you and the decisions you have the free will to make. God would never send His child to hell. His unrepentant children will surely send themselves by their use of a selfish personal free will.

Follow God's will, no matter how shabbily, with repentance in your heart and gain eternal communion with Him. Follow your will exclusively, without God, and remain in that condition and place without God with all the other's who have decided the same for all eternity.

Hell is that place where God is not. Heaven is that place where sin is not. Your choice to make as freely, as willfully as you desire. You choose your own consequences Ken, God does not do that for/to you.

I think to say we sent ourselves to Hell is akin to saying all those people who were handcuffed, and dragged kicking and screaming as they were forced into a jail cell actually sent themselves to jail by breaking the law.I'd say that is a bit of a twist of words and a leap of logic; but that's just me.

Ken

[Kenny]

So if you lived as an automaton on earth then how does suddenly getting free will work in eternity?

The same way it would work if you lived a life with free will

You'd be back to square one of either still being an automaton - you would be programmed to follow God and live with him....or have free will to stay or go. And the only other option is hell.

Why are those the only options? Why not the option of having freewill and going to heaven as they do now? Please explain

Ken

[Nessa]

Storyteller,

Is God omnipresent?

Just a thought. I used to think that hell is the absence of God. But I'm not so sure.

Wow, I'd never much thought about that paradox. So, if an attribute of hell is a lack of God's presence... Hmmm

Well, Revelation 14:10 tells of the torment of the wicked in the presence of the Lamb. And, "He fills all things with His presence" (Colossians 1:17); "upholds everything by the word of His power" (Hebrews 1:3); "He is FAR from the wicked" (Proverbs 15:29) . Perhaps, undoubtedly, the BLESSINGS of God are absent in hell and/or those in hell are unable to see or sense His omnipresence - well, other than God's terrible wrath.

Weird, without context, one talks of God being everywhere/present before every THING, ALL at ONCE, it almost could be misunderstood (by a non-Christian/non Scripturally literate one) as pantheism.

Philip,
Not naming quotes?

I expected more from you

[EssentialSacrifice]

but that's just me.

hardly, there are many more ... even many on this site, who, at one time or another, don't understand either. I'd say you're in good company, but truly, you aren't.

[Kenny]

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Yes, it is a place of torture and agony.
Yes, God does ultimately create the place.
Yes, Satan, his angels and those without Christ are there.

However, where we would differ with God designing and creating Hell specifically as a place of torture (like a torture chamber of sorts) to specifically punish souls for eternity. If God did this, then I'd still disagree with you that this takes away our free choice in our world (since God has withdrawn himself sufficiently enough for people to be able to bury a knowledge of God and ignore His existence if they so desire). However, it does bring God's loving nature into question.

Rather, I see hell as a necessary place if God is to rightfully reign over all creation.
Those who do not want God, who reject God, or cannot be accepted without God impugning His own holiness, God's goodness, God's purity, must necessarily be cast out.
Souls will be tortured for eternity because God will withdraw Himself as much as possible and give them a world without Himself reigning in it.

Consider some serial child rapist and torturer of hundreds of children in this life.
What would you have a good and loving God do with such?
Accept, embrace and welcome such into His kingdom?
Or should justice be meted out and evil dealt with?
If such had their way, they would probably love to just rape and torture God Himself for eternity.
Such a person doesn't love God, and clearly some punishment is in order as a matter of justice on behalf of those he committed evil against... so what would you have God do?

What would I have God do? How 'bout hell without the torture? Let those who reject him go to a place akin to what we currently have here on Earth, where they can be without God, and whatever they make of the place they can sink or swim, make the best of a Godless situation, or destroy themselves as they choose? Because not everybody going to hell is going to be like the child rapist in your scenario.

Ken