Cruel Logic

[Kurieuo]

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Yes, it is a place of torture and agony.
Yes, God does ultimately create the place.
Yes, Satan, his angels and those without Christ are there.

However, where we would differ with God designing and creating Hell specifically as a place of torture (like a torture chamber of sorts) to specifically punish souls for eternity. If God did this, then I'd still disagree with you that this takes away our free choice in our world (since God has withdrawn himself sufficiently enough for people to be able to bury a knowledge of God and ignore His existence if they so desire). However, it does bring God's loving nature into question.

Rather, I see hell as a necessary place if God is to rightfully reign over all creation.
Those who do not want God, who reject God, or cannot be accepted without God impugning His own holiness, God's goodness, God's purity, must necessarily be cast out.
Souls will be tortured for eternity because God will withdraw Himself as much as possible and give them a world without Himself reigning in it.

Consider some serial child rapist and torturer of hundreds of children in this life.
What would you have a good and loving God do with such?
Accept, embrace and welcome such into His kingdom?
Or should justice be meted out and evil dealt with?
If such had their way, they would probably love to just rape and torture God Himself for eternity.
Such a person doesn't love God, and clearly some punishment is in order as a matter of justice on behalf of those he committed evil against... so what would you have God do?

What would I have God do? How 'bout hell without the torture? Let those who reject him go to a place akin to what we currently have here on Earth, where they can be without God, and whatever they make of the place they can sink or swim, make the best of a Godless situation, or destroy themselves as they choose? Because not everybody going to hell is going to be like the child rapist in your scenario.

Ken

So God should give the rapist a place on earth?
Along side others who he can rape?
Maybe little children?

You see, although you don't see, God is still very much here in our world.
God doesn't just create, but God sustains the order of creation. Creates boundaries and limitations.
A place without God, is a place without the source of goodness. It is a place of disorder not order and stability (Colossians 1:17). God isn't going to bear along side those who don't want Him forever. He is going to give them what they want and/or what we righteously deserve: being cast out from God who is the source of life. Interesting that the lake of fire is termed the second death. (Rev 20:14)

As for "not everybody going to hell is going to be like the child rapist".
Yes, but through the question asked of the rapist I think we can both see that the rapist ought to be punished. At least, given God's existence, then a place where God withdraws himself from looks to be a necessary corollary if a good, just and loving God exists. Especially once understood that God is the source of many things taken for granted, like goodness and order, then remove all that and a place without God could only be torturous to those forced to be there.

[Kenny]

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

What is Hell? Kinda depends upon who you ask; but most agree it is a place of torture and agony.
Why does it exist? Because God created it
Who'd go there? Most people say Satan, his angels, and anybody who doesn't make it to Heaven.

I realize like anything else in religion, there is not a consensus among believers, so perhaps you might have a different perspective, but I just answered the questions the way I've heard other people answer.

Ken

Yes, it is a place of torture and agony.
Yes, God does ultimately create the place.
Yes, Satan, his angels and those without Christ are there.

However, where we would differ with God designing and creating Hell specifically as a place of torture (like a torture chamber of sorts) to specifically punish souls for eternity. If God did this, then I'd still disagree with you that this takes away our free choice in our world (since God has withdrawn himself sufficiently enough for people to be able to bury a knowledge of God and ignore His existence if they so desire). However, it does bring God's loving nature into question.

Rather, I see hell as a necessary place if God is to rightfully reign over all creation.
Those who do not want God, who reject God, or cannot be accepted without God impugning His own holiness, God's goodness, God's purity, must necessarily be cast out.
Souls will be tortured for eternity because God will withdraw Himself as much as possible and give them a world without Himself reigning in it.

Consider some serial child rapist and torturer of hundreds of children in this life.
What would you have a good and loving God do with such?
Accept, embrace and welcome such into His kingdom?
Or should justice be meted out and evil dealt with?
If such had their way, they would probably love to just rape and torture God Himself for eternity.
Such a person doesn't love God, and clearly some punishment is in order as a matter of justice on behalf of those he committed evil against... so what would you have God do?

What would I have God do? How 'bout hell without the torture? Let those who reject him go to a place akin to what we currently have here on Earth, where they can be without God, and whatever they make of the place they can sink or swim, make the best of a Godless situation, or destroy themselves as they choose? Because not everybody going to hell is going to be like the child rapist in your scenario.

Ken

So God should give the rapist a place on earth?
Along side others who he can rape?
Maybe little children?

You see, although you don't see, God is still very much here in our world.
God doesn't just create, but God sustains the order of creation. Creates boundaries and limitations.
A place without God, is a place without the source of goodness. It is a place of disorder not order and stability (Colossians 1:17). God isn't going to bear along side those who don't want Him forever. He is going to give them what they want and/or what we righteously deserve: being cast out from God who is the source of life. Interesting that the lake of fire is termed the second death. (Rev 20:14)

As for "not everybody going to hell is going to be like the child rapist".
Yes, but through the question asked of the rapist I think we can both see that the rapist ought to be punished. At least, given God's existence, then a place where God withdraws himself from looks to be a necessary corollary if a good, just and loving God exists. Once you understand God is the source of many things taken for granted, like goodness and order, then remove all that and a place without God could only be torturous to those forced out from God.

A child living on the same planet as the child rapist is what we have right now. Right now is not as bad as the tortures of Hell. As far as punishment doled out for the rapist, let society deal with him like we do now. As I said before, let the society who doesn't make it to heaven sink or swim according to their own abilities without any input from God.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

You are asking for the tortures of Hell whenever you talk of a place without God.

But, when you're face-to-face with God, feel free to tell Him to setup and sustain another place like Earth, cast everyone not apart of His kingdom there, and then tell him to please [have a beer]. Somehow, I just don't see that working. Ignore the fact God wouldn't take orders, such a world would all just collapse the moment God withdrew.

[RickD]

Storyteller,

Is God omnipresent?

Just a thought. I used to think that hell is the absence of God. But I'm not so sure.

Wow, I'd never much thought about that paradox. So, if an attribute of hell is a lack of God's presence... Hmmm

Well, Revelation 14:10 tells of the torment of the wicked in the presence of the Lamb. And, "He fills all things with His presence" (Colossians 1:17); "upholds everything by the word of His power" (Hebrews 1:3); "He is FAR from the wicked" (Proverbs 15:29) . Perhaps, undoubtedly, the BLESSINGS of God are absent in hell and/or those in hell are unable to see or sense His omnipresence - well, other than God's terrible wrath.

Weird, without context, one talks of God being everywhere/present before every THING, ALL at ONCE, it almost could be misunderstood (by a non-Christian/non Scripturally literate one) as pantheism.

As I understood hell, I thought of it as a place that was miserable, mainly because those there were away from God's presence.

But if God is truly omnipresent, He is in hell.

[Kenny]

You are asking for the tortures of Hell whenever you talk of a place without God.

What do you mean by that? Do you see Hell as a place of fire and brimstone? What do you mean torture is where God is not? Do the most evil people who are at peace with themselves still have an influence from God which allows them to feel good about themselves? I'm not quite getting this; please explain.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

You are asking for the tortures of Hell whenever you talk of a place without God.

What do you mean by that? Do you see Hell as a place of fire and brimstone? What do you mean torture is where God is not? Do the most evil people who are at peace with themselves still have an influence from God which allows them to feel good about themselves? I'm not quite getting this; please explain.

Ken

It is difficult to try get across. Unless you are willing to put yourself in my shoes to see God like how I see God as the necessary source of many things we take for granted, rather than seeing God as some whimsical unnecessary all-powerful being with a righteous and unforgiving club... then it will be very hard to understand what I'm saying.

Once you understand everything God is, then it becomes obvious that a place of "outer darkness" where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 22:13) which is "the blackness of darknesss forever" (Jude 13) which is the "lake of fire and brimstone" (Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8) which is a "bottomless pit" (Rev 9:2) and all those seemingly contradictory pictures... are symbols of what a world is like where God isn't, of what a world is like where we are left to our own devices entirely and shut out from the source of light, goodness, order, beauty and everything you probably love about this world.

In exchanges we had elsewhere some months ago, I took you through the contingency and non-contingency argument for a necessary all-existing foundational something. Remember? Regardless of what one believes, something has always existed and all of existence is founded upon something. You know I've built my beliefs on what God is, to some extent based upon such logic, basing my beliefs of God upon what I see and experience and a foundational source (which is ultimately contingency vs. non-contingency logic).

Such that, if goodness is experienced by us; we might experience such through this or that person, but such goodness is contingent upon some necessary foundational source of good (it doesn't just become expressed in mid-air from nothing). Like light shining out of the torch, we might see the light in the air (the good), but such shows there is a foundational source of that light. If it's a torch, we could say such is the foundational source although we know the torch itself is contingent upon many other things (so in reality while the torch mediates light, it's not the true non-contigent source of light). But, talking such of God beyond whom there would be no other, God would be the necessary non-contingent source of all light or all goodness.

You know, our world is very ordered. We have physical laws at work in our universe that hold everything together. We see some randomity at the quantum level which often baffles us, but the way it all works out, the mechanics of our world is something we can explore and figure out through science and common sense. Looking through my eyes, such structure is only possible because of some foundational all-existing something that set it in place and sustains it. Like a foundational source to light and goodness, there is a foundational source to law and order.

Whatever the foundational something is, which must ultimately be a necessary non-contingent source, is the source of all these properties in the world that we experience. The only source I'm aware of, which can be responsible for not just the physical world, but also immaterial world where things like universals, goodness, colours, beauty, love and the like are a reality -- is God. God is the source of all these things. And these good things that we experience on Earth right here and now, is ultimately because God is still meddling and running the world. If God were to withdraw, chaos would immediately follow and we'd all fade out of existence. Just like if a torch as the source of light is turned off, the light beaming out immediately ceases.

Once you clearly see this of God, that God is the necessary foundational source of many things, then saying God should create a world like ours and then stay out. Well, to keep a world functioning like ours God actually needs to stay in. The thing is, God isn't going to forever sustain a world but wants to bring in His kingdom more fully (or so we're told, although we can also see that life is intended to come to an end in our world). And there are a lot of bad things that go on in the world, caused by people who are really bad, who get off without any reckoning. That's not justice. God's goodness also demands justice. We know justice while scary, is a good thing. It's a righteousness thing which brings to justice those who have wronged others, and ultimately as such wronged God. Which is then a scary thing for those of us, all of us, who do transgress against God.

Not just really scary for a bad child raping serial killer, but for those of us who are "essentially good" but nonetheless erred. Because God is pure good, God logically shouldn't be able to accept any of us. So if there is a reckoning day for some of us, then there is a reckoning for all of us. Of course, we can throw ourselves on God's mercy seat and ask for forgiveness. That is what Christianity is really all about. Christ is God's mercy seat where we find forgiveness and we can go heart-to-heart with God.

In any case, a world without God means a cessation of everything God is. No more goodness. No more light. No more love. No more hope. No more order. No more structure. No more anything aka the second death. There is debate on whether "Hell" is really annihilation, or whether we are eternal beings and so hell is just being eternally cast out from God. I really don't know which is true. There are good arguments for both sides, but when I investigate Scripture in total I often end up leaning towards Hell being a place where God isn't (and by that I mean God withdraws Himself as much as possible).

[Storyteller]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

[Kenny]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

Tell me Ken, what evidence would you accept to believe in God?
What I mean is, what would have to happen for you to believe there was a God?

[Philip]

Ken: If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken, you say you spent your youth searching for God. So, have you done the unbelievers experiment - that is, have you sincerely asked, "God, IF you exist, please clearly reveal yourself to me, because I want to know the truth of your existence' all that might mean for me, and how You would desire I respond." Ken, have you ever done that?

[abelcainsbrother]

I think alot of the problem is people expect God to overlook their sin,they think their sin is not a big deal,they are a good person and do the best they can to be a moral person but no sin can enter into heaven but it is not this simple,if it was?God would not have sent Jesus,I realize all other god's that people believe in that I'm aware of do overlook sin as long as you follow the laws of their religion,but this makes their God not holy,you see God is holy and sin cannot be in his presence but God in his love made a way for us to be able to be in his presence again,despite our sin.

God knew we were sinners but instead of not loving us he made a way for us to be saved and be in his presence again,and it is not based on what we do,but only our faith in his way and his way is Jesus Christ,so that if you reject Jesus? Your sin that we all have remains and there is no atonement for it and so you will pay for your own sin unnecessarily but by a dumb choice because when you realize that Jesus made salvation easy as long as you put your faith in him? A person would have to want to go to hell for their sin in order to reject him,and will,if they reject The Way,The Truth and the Life- Jesus Christ.

It would be stupid to even take a chance that hell is just a scare tactic and a myth to control people,etc especially when you know that they are not being controlled now and are doing as they choose by their own choice,choosing to make the mistake that their sin is not a big deal to God.

[Storyteller]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

But you stopped looking.
Because you couldnt find him, you gave up?

He wont judge you harshly for faltering, for questioning, for doubting, but for denying His existence, sure.

[B. W.]

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Just because something exist doesn't mean it has value; the value comes when someone values it. If something exists and nobody is aware of its existence, it has no value because nobody will value it. If I say something has value, I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself.

That is called selfishness to the extreme, Kenny, glad you can at least admit this.

You have been on this forum for a long time and we discussed things a lot since you came on board so with that, I do speak towards you a bit different but also with a firm respect due to our past communications.

I would have wrote sooner but am battling a bad cold that is thankfully waning....

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Those terrorists probably spent thousands of dollars to accomplish what they did. Obviously those acts had value to them, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money. Remember; just because something has value doesn't mean it is good.

How does your statement, just because something has value doesn't mean it is good fit your,I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself fit here?

How do you determine if your values are good or bad? How sure are you about what you value - why?

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Society finds it important to enforce laws that punish such behavior BEFORE they die. We aren't in the business of throwing our hands up and saying "Let' em do what they want now and let God punish them after they die" NO! for those who believe in God they will say; "God can punish them after they die, but we gonna get to them first"!

In the OT, God sent forth the ability to enact justice upon murders by taking their life. So where did this ability to enact justice within a society come from?

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons.

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

Then that would prove God is absolutely unjust and design in accordance to fear as well as would mean that He is not all powerful either.

God is God is absolutely just, governing by equity, he is not afraid of anything or allow those whom he created as intelligent beings to make their moral decisions as he is more than able to handle all things. For God to be truly all that he says he is as revealed within the bible, then, such granting life to beings with free moral agency shows how perfect he really is in all his ways and not the other way around.

In fact, human beings love to make automatons out of each other. Dictators, Islam, Tyrants. progressive marxist bent liberals, all desire to make automatons to easily control. However, living under such rule is not good. That is defined as sin, missing the mark of the best, straying always into dysfunction where such dysfunction enslave folks to psychological bondage, addictions, control, power trips, abuse, neglect, abandonment, seeking fulfillment, etc and etc...

When one comes to Jesus, they become free from these things one issue at a time... Would you like such true freedom. Ken?

hmmm so here is a question to you Ken: would you prefer to live under an Islamic state or a western state influenced by Christians who govern by grace?
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[B. W.]

Hell, for me, is the total and utter absence of God, and love. Made all the more hellish by glimpsing what may have been, with one little leap of faith.

Wow Story!

Great answer!

Let me add this tidbit: the Presence of God's love is not there however his wrath is and such wrath totally justified...a wrath that issues forth just recommence of what one sown they reap.

Difficult to explain in five easy steps but is what the bible clearly indicates.

Great news is that God sent forth Jesus to die in our place so we do not have too live in death always.
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[Storyteller]

Hell, for me, is the total and utter absence of God, and love. Made all the more hellish by glimpsing what may have been, with one little leap of faith.

Wow Story!

Great answer!
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I hit the like button rather than the quote, sorry

But thanks xx