Cruel Logic

[B. W.]

Hell, for me, is the total and utter absence of God, and love. Made all the more hellish by glimpsing what may have been, with one little leap of faith.

Wow Story!

Great answer!
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I hit the like button rather than the quote, sorry

But thanks xx

That is okay, done that too - way too many times! added in a bit more on the post though in an edit this...

Let me add this tidbit: the Presence of God's love is not there however his wrath is and such wrath totally justified...a wrath that issues forth just recommence of what one sown they reap.

Difficult to explain in five easy steps but is what the bible clearly indicates.

Great news is that God sent forth Jesus to die in our place so we do not have too live in death always.

[Storyteller]

Now my like makes sense

[Kurieuo]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

If you don't mind answering in what ways did you search for God?

I'll honestly share a story of mine with you. At 19 years of age, I recall praying to God to reveal Himself to me. I told God that I didn't doubt he existed based upon my experiences throughout the years, but that I needed something more. And, I pretty much demanded God to reveal Himself to me in a physical way. And, I did feel emotional perhaps close to God praying that prayer. It was very heartfelt. Then I went out onto my bedroom balcony and had a smoke looking up at the street lights which were beaming out in a nice and graceful kind of way. And I said to God, you know, show me something like that only it be you or your angels. Why wouldn't you I reasoned to God? You know what happened? Nothing. No special physical revelation.

[RickD]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

If you don't mind answering in what ways did you search for God?

I'll honestly share a story of mine with you. At 19 years of age, I recall praying to God to reveal Himself to me. I told God that I didn't doubt he existed based upon my experiences throughout the years, but that I needed something more. And, I pretty much demanded God to reveal Himself to me in a physical way. And, I did feel emotional perhaps close to God praying that prayer. It was very heartfelt. Then I went out onto my bedroom balcony and had a smoke looking up at the street lights which were beaming out in a nice and graceful kind of way. And I said to God, you know, show me something like that only it be you or your angels. Why wouldn't you I reasoned to God? You know what happened? Nothing. No special physical revelation.

Wow K. That's unbelievable...you used to smoke?

[Philip]

Yes, smoking is very bad for you, I hear. I have NEVER smoked even one cigarette! Well, er, um - thing is, while it's true that I've never smoked a REGULAR coffin nail, I, ahem, was known, back in the day, for having had a very passionate relationship with my long-time girlfriend, Maryjane. Let's just say, from the first time I met her, I was blown away! And crazy thing is, I don't remember too much about the details of our dates.

[Philip]

Back to seriousness. God reveals Himself to those whom sincerely want to know Him, in HIS time and HOW He so desires. Now, I've had some miraculous experience in which God powerfully showed me His presence. But this is different for everyone. Don't expect the sky to open or lightening to strike. But when you DO sense it might be Him behind some experience, then move toward His light to seek a deeper understanding. Just don't cynically expect God to perform magic tricks or to reveal Himself ONLY as YOU so expect. He may, in fact, reveal Himself through others, or something quite unexpected.

[Kenny]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

Tell me Ken, what evidence would you accept to believe in God?
What I mean is, what would have to happen for you to believe there was a God?

There are a lot of things that could convince me. A voice from the sky would convince me, if I were the only one who could hear the voice, at first I would probably think I was crazy or something, but if the voice had conversations with me, eventually I would be convinced it were God if it told me it was.
At this point in my life, if I became convinced it was God, I would not make the assumption it was the God of the bible, nor would I be convinced it is all good, powerful, perfect, or anything else unless it gave me a reason to believe it was
There are lots of other things that would work, but I think the most effective thing that could convince me would be personal experiences.


Ken

[Kenny]

Ken: If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken, you say you spent your youth searching for God. So, have you done the unbelievers experiment - that is, have you sincerely asked, "God, IF you exist, please clearly reveal yourself to me, because I want to know the truth of your existence' all that might mean for me, and how You would desire I respond." Ken, have you ever done that?

I have never heard of anything called the “unbelievers experiment”, but when I was searching for God and I felt my faith beginning to slip, out of the hundreds of prayers I prayed during that time, even though none of them may have included the exact wording of the experiment, some of the prayers included in my own words “The Unbelievers experiment”; so I guess the answer would be yes.

Ken

[Kenny]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

But you stopped looking.
Because you couldnt find him, you gave up?

He wont judge you harshly for faltering, for questioning, for doubting, but for denying His existence, sure.

Yes! As a human, when you try the same thing over and over without the expected results, eventually you give up. As far as denying, eventually doubting will turn into denying.

Ken

[Kenny]

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Just because something exist doesn't mean it has value; the value comes when someone values it. If something exists and nobody is aware of its existence, it has no value because nobody will value it. If I say something has value, I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself.

That is called selfishness to the extreme, Kenny, glad you can at least admit this.

Why do you consider it selfish?

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Those terrorists probably spent thousands of dollars to accomplish what they did. Obviously those acts had value to them, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money. Remember; just because something has value doesn't mean it is good.

How does your statement, just because something has value doesn't mean it is good fit your,I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself fit here?

Cocaine has value even though I consider it bad.

When I was 10 years old I had a crush on this girl and she had one on me. I was unable to tell my family about her because her skin was the wrong color and nobody would approve. There came a time when my family was going to move to far away, and when I told her she gave me a small gold plated heart that was split down the middle and she gave half to me and kept the other half herself. Today I still have that gold plated heart. It is very valuable to me, but to anyone else it is worthless.

How do you determine if your values are good or bad? How sure are you about what you value - why?

Just to keep things clear, “values” in reference to morality is different from “value” in reference to the cost of a thing.
As far as moral value, if you look at it from my perspective, morals, values, good, and bad, are just labels we attach to human behaviors and character. I believe I’ve already discussed my interpretation of morality with you; if you want me to go over it again I will.

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Society finds it important to enforce laws that punish such behavior BEFORE they die. We aren't in the business of throwing our hands up and saying "Let' em do what they want now and let God punish them after they die" NO! for those who believe in God they will say; "God can punish them after they die, but we gonna get to them first"!

In the OT, God sent forth the ability to enact justice upon murders by taking their life. So where did this ability to enact justice within a society come from?

I suspect human nature

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons.

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

Then that would prove God is absolutely unjust and design in accordance to fear as well as would mean that He is not all powerful either.

Why would my preferences prove anything about God?

hmmm so here is a question to you Ken: would you prefer to live under an Islamic state or a western state influenced by Christians who govern by grace?
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[/quote]
You are asking me if I would prefer to live under Sharia law as apposed to how I live now? What have I said that would give you the impression I might wanna live under Sharia law?

Ken

[Kenny]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

If you don't mind answering in what ways did you search for God?

I'll honestly share a story of mine with you. At 19 years of age, I recall praying to God to reveal Himself to me. I told God that I didn't doubt he existed based upon my experiences throughout the years, but that I needed something more. And, I pretty much demanded God to reveal Himself to me in a physical way. And, I did feel emotional perhaps close to God praying that prayer. It was very heartfelt. Then I went out onto my bedroom balcony and had a smoke looking up at the street lights which were beaming out in a nice and graceful kind of way. And I said to God, you know, show me something like that only it be you or your angels. Why wouldn't you I reasoned to God? You know what happened? Nothing. No special physical revelation.

Sounds like that "Unbelievers experiment" that Philip spoke of, didn't work for you either huh?

Ken

[Kurieuo]

Sounds like that "Unbelievers experiment" that Philip spoke of, didn't work for you either huh?

Ken

No, it didn't work. And it made me question my Christianity and what I believe.

I was brought up believing healings happen quite frequently in churches (at least Pentecostal churches), visions and miracles often happened, and you know if your heart is right with God and the like, then you too could perform healings, would see angels and the like. At least, you'd have a particular gift given to you and I always wanted to be able to heal people, right? Pictured myself like a Smith Wigglesworth or the like, evangelising and changing people's lives in the power and name of Jesus Christ.

So then, I wondered why my true experience in the world was so at odds with those beliefs. Why God didn't show Himself more, as one might expect, especially if gifts of prophecy, healing and the like were all so "common" today. It just didn't add up. In a way, I guess you could say that I went through a type of de-conversion experience with questioning and more critical thinking.

[Kurieuo]

Wow K. That's unbelievable...you used to smoke?

The devil made me do it. I had no choice.

[RickD]

Sounds like that "Unbelievers experiment" that Philip spoke of, didn't work for you either huh?

Ken

No, it didn't work. And it made me question my Christianity and what I believe.

I was brought up believing healings happen quite frequently in churches (at least Pentecostal churches), visions and miracles often happened, and you know if your heart is right with God and the like, then you too could perform healings, would see angels and the like. At least, you'd have a particular gift given to you and I always wanted to be able to heal people, right? Pictured myself like a Smith Wigglesworth or the like, evangelising and changing people's lives in the power and name of Jesus Christ.

So then, I wondered why my true experience in the world was so at odds with those beliefs. Why God didn't show Himself more, as one might expect, especially if gifts of prophecy, healing and the like were all so "common" today. It just didn't add up. In a way, I guess you could say that I went through a type of de-conversion experience with questioning and more critical thinking.

K,

It seems to me that you had some wrong expectations about God. You attributed some things that you thought you should be, if God was working in your life. Then maybe after a while, you realized that God has His own way, and it's not what you expected.

I say this not to tell you what you already know, but to say it to anyone who has ears to hear. We can't make demands of God. We can say "God, if you're real, you'll do such and such".

It doesn't work that way. We can't make God fit into a box that we think He'll fit into.


Maybe someday certain people will hear God speaking to them. Instead of ignoring God, because He's not reaching out to them under their terms.

[Storyteller]

I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.

Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?

Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.

If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.

Ken

But you stopped looking.
Because you couldnt find him, you gave up?

He wont judge you harshly for faltering, for questioning, for doubting, but for denying His existence, sure.

Yes! As a human, when you try the same thing over and over without the expected results, eventually you give up. As far as denying, eventually doubting will turn into denying.

Ken

I disagree Ken. I didn`t.

I looked and looked for God, for some clue that all this may be true. I freely admit I have always wanted it to be true. There have been times where I have seriously thought I was deluded, chasing after rainbows, blindly grasping at some reason for being but never, ever have I denied God. Doubting God, not knowing, that I can understand but denying Him totally? I can`t.

So, doubt doesn`t always lead to denial. And some of us don`t give up.

Imagine this.... God is real, you meet Him, how do you explain giving up on Him? And why, if you have given up on Him, to the point of denying Him, why should He then, after revealing Himself say it`s okay Ken, it doesn`t matter you denied my existence, it`s my fault you didn`t find me?
Maybe, if you were still looking, really looking then yeah, but save your soul despite you denying Him?