Atheist/non Christian

[MBPrata]

MBPrata,

I'll let Mallz address your post, but I just wanted to throw a thought at you. You bring up the issue of evil, with regards to babies dying.

Not true. I didn't mention babies dying as "evil". I mentioned it as mixed signal from God, as in, if He wants to test us, then letting people/souls die without being tested is pointless. Why did they came to the world to begin with?

I don't think babies dying is "evil", it's just something that happens. Unfortunately...

[RickD]

MBPrata,

I'll let Mallz address your post, but I just wanted to throw a thought at you. You bring up the issue of evil, with regards to babies dying.

Not true. I didn't mention babies dying as "evil". I mentioned it as mixed signal from God, as in, if He wants to test us, then letting people/souls die without being tested is pointless. Why did they came to the world to begin with?

I don't think babies dying is "evil", it's just something that happens. Unfortunately...

Alrighty then. I apologize.

[Storyteller]

MBPrata,

I'll let Mallz address your post, but I just wanted to throw a thought at you. You bring up the issue of evil, with regards to babies dying.

Not true. I didn't mention babies dying as "evil". I mentioned it as mixed signal from God, as in, if He wants to test us, then letting people/souls die without being tested is pointless. Why did they came to the world to begin with?

I don't think babies dying is "evil", it's just something that happens. Unfortunately...

Maybe those souls are here to teach us something? I lost 4 babies before having my daughter and I honestly believe my babies that died gave me the strength to believe I would have a child. They taught me how fragile, how special life is.

Why are you happy to go along with the universe just being? Absurd as it is, yet God isn't possible?
Do you really believe there is no God? Or just don't know?

Sure, all this could just be chance, our brains tricking us, perception. But..... it could be God too, couldn't it?

[abelcainsbrother]

They are the facts of our universe,we know this based on logic,reason and reality

Can you demonstrate these facts?

I guess you could choose to take your chances to wait and see if materialistic science is ever able to refute them,

I'll take my chances with science

Ken

Yes I can demonstrate these are the facts of our universe by demanding you name anything in our universe that does not apply to these facts,and if you can't? Then you have absolutely no reason to reject these facts.What you fail to realize is the true peer reviewed science confirms the God of the bible,based on what the bible tells us,it is the anti-God non-peer reviewed science that you mean.

[MBPrata]

Alrighty then. I apologize.

Apology accepted.

Why are you happy to go along with the universe just being?

I never said I was happy. Heck, I met this website when I was passing through a depression!

Do you really believe there is no God? Or just don't know?

"Believe", I think, is that thing you do when you don't know something. The same way you believe that God exists, rather than knowing, I believe the God of the Bible doesn't exist.
No, I don't know whether God exists or not. How could I know such a thing? Our brain is such a lame tool to "know" things, anyway...

Sure, all this could just be chance, our brains tricking us, perception. But..... it could be God too, couldn't it?

Sure. I just don't think it's very likely. But, yes, it could perfectly be. Please notice: I hardly say i "know" anything for sure. Actually, in my view, claiming you "know" something (rather than believe it) is one of the most arrogant attitudes a human can have.

In my opinion, of course...

[Nessa]

Alrighty then. I apologize.

Apology accepted.

Why are you happy to go along with the universe just being?

I never said I was happy. Heck, I met this website when I was passing through a depression!

Do you really believe there is no God? Or just don't know?

"Believe", I think, is that thing you do when you don't know something. The same way you believe that God exists, rather than knowing, I believe the God of the Bible doesn't exist.
No, I don't know whether God exists or not. How could I know such a thing? Our brain is such a lame tool to "know" things, anyway...

Sure, all this could just be chance, our brains tricking us, perception. But..... it could be God too, couldn't it?

Sure. I just don't think it's very likely. But, yes, it could perfectly be. Please notice: I hardly say i "know" anything for sure. Actually, in my view, claiming you "know" something (rather than believe it) is one of the most arrogant attitudes a human can have.

In my opinion, of course...

Would you mind attaching names to your quotes?
Just makes it easier for us lazy people to follow along better
Cos then we dont have to retrace who said what etc

[MBPrata]

Would you mind attaching names to your quotes?
Just makes it easier for us lazy people to follow along better
Cos then we dont have to retrace who said what etc

Sure. I know that pain, bro.


MBPrata

[RickD]

Would you mind attaching names to your quotes?
Just makes it easier for us lazy people to follow along better
Cos then we dont have to retrace who said what etc

Sure. I know that pain, bro.


MBPrata

Nessa is a sis, not a bro! I think.

[Mallz]

Well, I admit I was kind of adopting God's logic when thinking about a "stupid" universe. Sometimes I mix both perspectives...

Gotcha. I mix both, too, but I like your trying to adopt His perspective, I think humans in general get too caught up in a creatures perspective when talking about the Eternal Essence.

Anyway, what I meant was that God wants us (?) to believe He exists while filling the universe with evidence against Him. For starters, creating a universe in which things can appear from nowhere while wanting people to believe the universe came from God and not nowhere is...sort of stupid. Or contradictory, to say the least.

Assuming a God exists, let's keep thinking what this Gods perspective would be.
There's a common assumption that all He wants is for us to believe in Him. Sure, that's true, but no where close to the picture. And won't explain the current state of our age. I think the better question, is why He wants us to believe in Him. What is the point of humanity from His perspective? And this world as we know it in our age?
He created a reality where He is hidden and no matter what, will take a level of faith to believe in Him. Why?
If He just wanted everyone to come to Him and know Him, yes there would be better ways/worlds. But that is not the goal of humanity in Gods eye. Our goal is to become His image. His ambassadors to His creation. His living expression. How do you get the understanding of God? This reality is for the education of humanity, to be birthed into new creatures who can fulfill His intent for humanity.
Even the most respected secular scientists agree this world doesn't have long to last (and are generous with their 1,000 years to Earths destruction. I've seen them be much for comfortable with 500 [secular as in dawkins and Hawking]). And if the atheist philosophy is true, humanities blink of existence is pointless once its existence ends. I don't say this as any sort of scare tactic but to express the very real finality of humanity/this world. If you believe in the Big Bang, you know the universe will will end when it reaches close to heat death. The physical is timed to end. That much is certain. So looking at the world/universe we live in. If a God did exist, the point of this physical realm can't be to stay in this current/progressing state (even shown through secular science alone).

Then, there are human-like creatures. Please don't start with that demagogy saying Neanderthals and Erectus where very different from us; expecting people to believe in creation in a planet where there are both human-like creatures and DNA mutations is pretty much stupid. Like I said once: it's like watering a flower expecting your friend to notice you watered it...in a zone where it rains a lot!

I'm not understanding this, could you re-word it for me?

Then, the test thing. Most christians say God made us pass through this cruel universe to test us. Ok, so why letting babies die? And children? People who haven't been tested yet? Jeez, God is the king of mixed signals!

Hmmm, not necessarily test us; more like wake us up to our selfish/destructive ways (re-align us back to Himself). I work with kids 0-18 (pediatric nurse). I'm on a nuero critical care unit. A good portion of my patients will be in and out of our unit for their short lives and will think of us as second home (can be a good or bad perspective). I have too much to say here so I'll try and condense it and let you ask me anything if you wish.
These children who know pain many adults never will are not here mainly for themselves. They are here for those they influence and effect. Remember, our existence isn't about us, and less individually (although this in no way discredits/dumbs down the spice/salt of individuals). There are too many people going along blindly in their lives that will only wake up from something personal happening. This is what a Christian means when they say He uses evil for His own good. (evil in definition is the denaturing of an essence, which is why I believe you can see it easily expressed in nature/science). And I won't say its all humanity/demons fault for the reality of the 'fall'. It is the direct consequences of their actions, but who set those consequences up? Of course He knew the spiritual world followed shortly by the physical world would 'fall'. Why would he let that happen? There's is much more going on here that is above/beyond creatures being free agents.

This is the "stupidity" I was talking about. I can believe that a god created the universe, but all these factors (and some more) prevent me from believing He wants us to know he exists. Sometimes I think a god sent us these mixed signals just to laugh by watching us confused. That makes more sense. Otherwise, I can only think of 3 alternatives: 1. God, despite His power, is no more intelligent than us; 2. God is actually the most intelligent, but arrogant enough to think we should believe in Him despite all His mixed signals; 3. There's no God and the apparent intelligence of the universe is just that - apparent.

[/quote]
I don't think it's any of those alternatives. And I think to have a satisfactory answer it'll be explained in much more than just a sentence, let alone the little I've written thus far.
For 1) Doesn't make sense to me. God is the Eternal Essence everything comes from. That's the first thing that needs to be established. Then whether there is intelligence/presence/personality/etc. to this God.
2) I believe this perspective is trapped to a creatures perspective and misses a Gods reasons for why things are.
3) Intelligence comes from somewhere, before the universe was. The physical can show the expressions/intent of this Prime Intelligence and should be examined on the metaphysical level. I'd like to put forward that at least: Intelligence exists fundamentally in the functioning of everything in this universe. It is apparent. But just like the physical, we must ask, where did this programming come from?

This is what I have for now. I'd enjoy continuing if you're interested.

[MBPrata]

He created a reality where He is hidden and no matter what, will take a level of faith to believe in Him. Why?

Ok, maybe. It's just that...if our "only" way to be His ambassateurs is through faith, then that makes it kind of needless/pointless for modern scientists to try to rationalize the idea of God through science instead of just betting on faith.

I'm not understanding this, could you re-word it for me?

Huh...sure. So, before creating humans, God created human-like creatres like Neanderthals and Erectus. Which we, humans, would eventually find out when digging. Also, He created a process through which new animals/beings/whatever can be created, like DNA mutations. And He mixed both these things in the same planet. As if some of us wouldn't, naturally, reach the conclusion that macroevolution could perfectly be a thing...like a fake clue or a mixed signal.
Then again, you did underline the importance of faith. It sure takes some faith to believe God put us here while we have, in our very planet, a mechanism to create new beings...but, oh well, maybe faith answer that.

These children who know pain many adults never will are not here mainly for themselves. They are here for those they influence and effect. Remember, our existence isn't about us, and less individually (although this in no way discredits/dumbs down the spice/salt of individuals). There are too many people going along blindly in their lives that will only wake up from something personal happening. This is what a Christian means when they say He uses evil for His own good.

Well, maybe. But this reminds me of something I wrote some time ago. I wrote this:
Aren't those situations a little too rough for we to learn something? Would a loving allow thousands of people to die or live miserable lives just to allow a percentage of people to learn from their disgrace?
I do realize mr. Deem seems to think that God gives some really violent lessons to the world; I read his article on Haiti's earthquake and I'm not sure I interpreted it well, but the conclusion sounded like "God allowed the earthquake so He would teach us a lesson about how greedy are the construction dudes in Haiti, so we would realize how hedious greed is.". But does this sound much like a loving God?
Letting tons of innocents die agonizing deaths just to say "Don't be greedy, that's bad."?! Good lord, that sounds like that couple who put on a mask and cruelly (is that a word?) abducted their son in order to teach him the peril of talking to strangers? That [poop] leaves a trauma, you know...

I'd like to put forward that at least: Intelligence exists fundamentally in the functioning of everything in this universe. It is apparent. But just like the physical, we must ask, where did this programming come from?

Ah, the old dilemma. In my opinion, it came from rules. Now, since rules are not a physical thing, then may perfectly exist and apply without the need of being created; they just are. Now, it is possible that God created these rules. Then again, they may also exist on their own, since they're not physical; just something that applies.
I like to thing intelligence came from somwhere (or someone), but then I think maybe intelligence is something that only exists in our universe, so the outside can't be explained by intelligence...maybe! Sometimes I wish I had strong beliefs so I could get rid of these soul-crushing doubts. I'm doubtful by nature... XP


MBPrata

[MBPrata]

Nessa is a sis, not a bro! I think.

Oh, right...I missed that!


MBPrata

[Nicki]

Huh...sure. So, before creating humans, God created human-like creatres like Neanderthals and Erectus. Which we, humans, would eventually find out when digging. Also, He created a process through which new animals/beings/whatever can be created, like DNA mutations. And He mixed both these things in the same planet. As if some of us wouldn't, naturally, reach the conclusion that macroevolution could perfectly be a thing...like a fake clue or a mixed signal.
Then again, you did underline the importance of faith. It sure takes some faith to believe God put us here while we have, in our very planet, a mechanism to create new beings...but, oh well, maybe faith answer that.

MBPrata

A lot of us are pretty doubtful that the origin and evolution of life could have actually happened on its own - the odds seem to be way against it - but scientists have to try to find a naturalistic explanation for everything, however unlikely.

[Mallz]

Ok, maybe. It's just that...if our "only" way to be His ambassateurs is through faith, then that makes it kind of needless/pointless for modern scientists to try to rationalize the idea of God through science instead of just betting on faith.

The underlined to me is an oxymoron. God is what everything comes from. And at some level we are both right. You believe something has always existed and so do I (at least I believe you do, if not we have bigger fishies to fry first). Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". He's not asking you to have blind faith (another oxymoron IMO). To have conviction you have to have enough intellectual drive for your will to believe and therefore hope that your convictions are right. Yes it can be done blindly, but it's not helpful for that person, or anyone else. And IMO, detrimental to everyone involved, including that individuals relationship with Him. And, yes, we can only be ambassadors through faith. How could we be and ambassador to something/someone we don't even believe exists?

Huh...sure. So, before creating humans, God created human-like creatres like Neanderthals and Erectus. Which we, humans, would eventually find out when digging. Also, He created a process through which new animals/beings/whatever can be created, like DNA mutations. And He mixed both these things in the same planet. As if some of us wouldn't, naturally, reach the conclusion that macroevolution could perfectly be a thing...like a fake clue or a mixed signal.
Then again, you did underline the importance of faith. It sure takes some faith to believe God put us here while we have, in our very planet, a mechanism to create new beings...but, oh well, maybe faith answer that.

Haha, Erectus. A couple of things here.. First I reject random (even in quantum mechanics) and macroevolution as existent 'things' (we don't need to agree here, it doesn't get in the way of anything). Although, if you are interested, I would like you to demonstrate/show me macroevolution. I have done my due diligence of thorough studies and found no evidence of it (especially at the DNA/molecular level. If this is something you can enlighten me to, I would greatly appreciate it).
Second, assuming macroevoltion is true.. What does that have to do with anything? Who cares if humanity evolved step by step to what resembles humans today? It still didn't happen randomly. Mutations are not random; they happen for a reason. And even if it was random (I'll assume randomness exists); again, so what? That just adds a random element to existence. I'm still calling existence itself God. And surely to a creature he can seem random; but I disagree He/Reality is.
So, how can we get to the crux of this?
I also disagree with what is underlined. What is this mechanism? At the quantum level, lots of things look the same...

Aren't those situations a little too rough for we to learn something? Would a loving allow thousands of people to die or live miserable lives just to allow a percentage of people to learn from their disgrace?.....

There are assumptions here. First, define love (and by whose standards?). Then, death can be a very loving action. So can ending a life. And it's more than 'suffering of the many for the sake of the few'. We are all in this reality together. This reality has consequences from our actions. And our reality is that we, collectively as a human race, trash ourselves and the reality we are in. Some people don't deserve to live. Some groups of people don't deserve it either. And an entire civilization that destroys itself, each other, surrounding peoples, it's youth, does not either (Sodom as an example).

There are also assumptions that God jumps to judgement, and He doesn't. But how could someone know either if they won't even get past the emotional blocks of accepting He is real based off of presumptions about His character (when He doesn't even exist... See the issue here?)? The problem, is people in general are relative humanists. If we are going to try and grasp the functioning of God, we really to do it on realities terms, not ours. And trauma, BTW, is very effective in permanently changing personalities/hearts. Trauma isn't always a bad thing, either.

And I don't know that article of Deems, but unless he had a special revelation, or knows Haiti is going against something in a covenant that applies between them and God, I don't know how he could jump to that specific conclusion. I do accept, however, that 'natural' disasters are a form of warning/punishment from Him.

Ah, the old dilemma. In my opinion, it came from rules. Now, since rules are not a physical thing, then may perfectly exist and apply without the need of being created; they just are. Now, it is possible that God created these rules. Then again, they may also exist on their own, since they're not physical; just something that applies

You kinda just described God... In order to get your answer, we would have to figure out 2 things. 1) Is our reality the only reality (all encompassing, nothing 'outside the box' as there is no such thing)? 2) Is there something outside this reality and is that an oxymoron itself? <-creates a regression.
Regardless, we'll have to figure out if infinite regression is even possible. And the reality we live in, says no.
Think of our senses. We can't see many, many things. Due to acuity of vision, or lack of physical ability to sense (such as seeing much more of the light spectrum than we can).
It is hard for us to 'see' these rules, the laws that govern our reality. But we believe in them. Because the are apparent through their effects. So, too, can we say the same thing about God. He is apparent, through Him actualizing our reality/existence. The fact existence exists, speaks of Gods existence. The Principle everything comes from. Whether such things as laws are of Him and therefore un-created, or His tool to govern our reality; doesn't really matter. We are still dealing with the same issues. What is this underlying Principle? <--explored by the Principles effects on our reality. And it's great you see non-physical exists.

I like to thing intelligence came from somwhere (or someone), but then I think maybe intelligence is something that only exists in our universe, so the outside can't be explained by intelligence...maybe! Sometimes I wish I had strong beliefs so I could get rid of these soul-crushing doubts. I'm doubtful by nature... XP

Having doubt is healthy. Living your doubt is retarding yourself. Questing to always test yourself and what you know to refine your beliefs, shows a productive intelligence and will.
I think God is intelligence as He is existence as He is love as He is the purest form of everything expressed in this reality. And everything is just an expression of Him. We have all these things because the 'come from' Him. We have intelligence. We can see intelligence because we have intelligence. We can see order is real because we see all these intricate rules working together to hold existence together, and their consequences on us/our planet. We can see the non-physical exists such as abstract objects (redness for example). All the things we can see (and can't) tell us about reality. If there is something where everything comes from (simple secular science); then we know God exists. Who/what this God is, is the real question. Which is why atheists are so self-defeating. It's obvious there is a God, we just need to identify it/Him (and I believe I have).

[Nessa]

Would you mind attaching names to your quotes?
Just makes it easier for us lazy people to follow along better
Cos then we dont have to retrace who said what etc

Sure. I know that pain, bro.


MBPrata

Nessa is a sis, not a bro! I think.

Only one way to find out

Ask me whether I'll make you a sammich!

[MBPrata]

if you are interested, I would like you to demonstrate/show me macroevolution.

You believe in a God described in a book written thousands of years ago, in a time in which people couldn't distinguish reality from an ordinary hallucination caused by alien substances...and I am the one who have to demonstrate you something you know I can't demonstrate???!!! Give me a break. This is one of the reasons christians and atheists argue instead of having a decent debate, you know?

I have done my due diligence of thorough studies and found no evidence of it (especially at the DNA/molecular level.

If you have done scientific/biological studies on that, then I'll give you that; I have not done it and I'm used to leaving more qualified people getting the conclusions and accpeting their conclusions (when I believe in other people, that is; when I remember people may be a creation from my mind, I may think twice before believing in them, scientist or not...). However, if you are a sort of a scientist, keep in mind there are much more scientists, and most scientists I know don't believe in the God of the Bible, so...

Who cares if humanity evolved step by step to what resembles humans today? It still didn't happen randomly.

I have my doubts on that. Besides, evolution by randomness only discards the most accepted evolution theory of today; it doesn't discard, for example, Lamarckian evolution (although I admit that one seems to not fit the data).

And even if it was random (I'll assume randomness exists); again, so what? That just adds a random element to existence. I'm still calling existence itself God.

The thing is: leaving the planet "You" created for "Your" creatures be ruled by randomness is counterproductive if your creatures want to look for You through observational data. If you, human, see randomness ruling your planet, is it logical to believe God has a say on how things work in your planet? Not really, I think...

What is this mechanism?

According to the most consensual evolution theory, it's the things that cause DNA mutations, namely radiation.

nd our reality is that we, collectively as a human race, trash ourselves and the reality we are in. Some people don't deserve to live. Some groups of people don't deserve it either. And an entire civilization that destroys itself, each other, surrounding peoples, it's youth, does not either (Sodom as an example).

I hope you are sort of quoting the Bible. Otherwise, you are no one to decide who deserves to live. Neither am I, but whatever...I'm still very confused about God's test. If (I repeat, if) we are here to be tested, I don't get I would God kill Sodomians which hadn't finished their test (aka died). Like, He sometimes decide to abruptly end someone's test? If so, His criteria seems sort of wobbling. There are extremelly "rotten" villains that live for years, while others not-so-bad-but-only-by-comparison die sooner...I don't know, it seems confusing. Then again, I am no one to judge who is a villain or who isn't, so...

And it's gettin late in my country, so maybe I'll continue another day! XP


MBPrata