Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Kenny wrote:Sounds like that "Unbelievers experiment" that Philip spoke of, didn't work for you either huh?
Ken
No, it didn't work. And it made me question my Christianity and what I believe.
I was brought up believing healings happen quite frequently in churches (at least Pentecostal churches), visions and miracles often happened, and you know if your heart is right with God and the like, then you too could perform healings, would see angels and the like. At least, you'd have a particular gift given to you and I always wanted to be able to heal people, right? Pictured myself like a Smith Wigglesworth or the like, evangelising and changing people's lives in the power and name of Jesus Christ.
So then, I wondered why my true experience in the world was so at odds with those beliefs. Why God didn't show Himself more, as one might expect, especially if gifts of prophecy, healing and the like were all so "common" today. It just didn't add up. In a way, I guess you could say that I went through a type of de-conversion experience with questioning and more critical thinking.
K,
It seems to me that you had some wrong expectations about God. You attributed some things that you thought you should be, if God was working in your life. Then maybe after a while, you realized that God has His own way, and it's not what you expected.
I say this not to tell you what you already know, but to say it to anyone who has ears to hear. We can't make demands of God. We can say "God, if you're real, you'll do such and such".
It doesn't work that way. We can't make God fit into a box that we think He'll fit into.
Maybe someday certain people will hear God speaking to them. Instead of ignoring God, because He's not reaching out to them under their terms.
Yes, evidently there is more to my story given I obviously strongly believe God exists.
But I don't consider it relevant since Kenny went down another path to me so that's where any similarity I was trying to perhaps relate to ends.
Although God didn't reveal Himself to me in the way I wanted -- God didn't leave me hanging. My prayer didn't go unanswered. I realised that I needed reasons for why I believe rather than until that point in my life really just accepting such upon my religious experiences and the like growing up. Really, God led me to what I needed like I suppose a strong wind blowing.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Storyteller wrote:I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.
Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?
Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.
If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.
Ken
Tell me Ken, what evidence would you accept to believe in God?
What I mean is, what would have to happen for you to believe there was a God?
There are a lot of things that could convince me. A voice from the sky would convince me, if I were the only one who could hear the voice, at first I would probably think I was crazy or something, but if the voice had conversations with me, eventually I would be convinced it were God if it told me it was.
At this point in my life, if I became convinced it was God, I would not make the assumption it was the God of the bible, nor would I be convinced it is all good, powerful, perfect, or anything else unless it gave me a reason to believe it was
There are lots of other things that would work, but I think the most effective thing that could convince me would be personal experiences.
Ken
So, Personal revelation would convince you?
SO I assume that you do NOT discount the personal revelation accounts of others then, yes?
Kurieuo: No, it didn't work. And it made me question my Christianity and what I believe.
Well, as you are now saved, then I'd say your experiment didn't work WHEN and AS you'd hoped or expected. But that God did, at some point, reveal Himself to you. That's why I say God works and reveals Himself differently with different people. Some are instantly shown His reality and are saved in the moment. Others have miraculous experiences. Others very slowly sense God working in their lives. Some initially realize God exists through logic and facts that He confirms for them. Anyone can say, "OK, God if you are real, then ________________, and I'll believe you are there. Doesn't work like that.
Storyteller wrote:I had always just kinda assumed that God wouldn`t be in Hell. He cannot look upon sin so how can He be? I see hell as a place so bleak, so cold, so just, I can`t explain it.... just hell. Without God.
Kenny? Bear with me for a moment, humour me.... just suppose for a second God is real. You die, see Him face to face and everything makes sense. It all means something. (I used to be a nurse so I have seen, and been with, a lot of people when they have died and with the exception of two people each and every one, on the moment of death, had such a look of "Ah! So that`s why..." I am totally convinced something happens. Right imagine seeing God, all His glory, His love then being cast away from it. For eternity. An eternity yearning to return to God. Knowing it was your choice that put you there. Sure, some may not care but would you?
Just a thought..... cause and effect. What effect will your non belief have Ken? Or what effect might it have? Is it worth the risk to deny God totally? To be so sure of His non existence? Or perhaps just a maybe.
If everything you say about God were true, yeah; I would spend eternity in hell, but I would go there feeling my judgment was unfair because from my perspective God has always remained hidden from me, especially since I spent much of my youth searching for God and was unable to find him. For him to suddenly appear after it is too late and judge me harshly for denying his existence is not what I would consider fair.
Ken
Tell me Ken, what evidence would you accept to believe in God?
What I mean is, what would have to happen for you to believe there was a God?
There are a lot of things that could convince me. A voice from the sky would convince me, if I were the only one who could hear the voice, at first I would probably think I was crazy or something, but if the voice had conversations with me, eventually I would be convinced it were God if it told me it was.
At this point in my life, if I became convinced it was God, I would not make the assumption it was the God of the bible, nor would I be convinced it is all good, powerful, perfect, or anything else unless it gave me a reason to believe it was
There are lots of other things that would work, but I think the most effective thing that could convince me would be personal experiences.
Ken
So, Personal revelation would convince you?
SO I assume that you do NOT discount the personal revelation accounts of others then, yes?
I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.
NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!
Nor will anyone be convinced, when they are putting God in a box, by demanding that God reveals Himself our way, instead of His way.
God is not a genie in a lamp, which does our bidding.
If Kenny were truly open to God revealing Himself, Kenny would be open to God on His terms.
He would genuinely and truly ask God to show him the way according to God's will, not Kenny's.
God will open the door to all who knock. But, it's God's door, not Kenny's.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny wrote:Sounds like that "Unbelievers experiment" that Philip spoke of, didn't work for you either huh?
Ken
No, it didn't work. And it made me question my Christianity and what I believe.
I was brought up believing healings happen quite frequently in churches (at least Pentecostal churches), visions and miracles often happened, and you know if your heart is right with God and the like, then you too could perform healings, would see angels and the like. At least, you'd have a particular gift given to you and I always wanted to be able to heal people, right? Pictured myself like a Smith Wigglesworth or the like, evangelising and changing people's lives in the power and name of Jesus Christ.
So then, I wondered why my true experience in the world was so at odds with those beliefs. Why God didn't show Himself more, as one might expect, especially if gifts of prophecy, healing and the like were all so "common" today. It just didn't add up. In a way, I guess you could say that I went through a type of de-conversion experience with questioning and more critical thinking.
K,
It seems to me that you had some wrong expectations about God. You attributed some things that you thought you should be, if God was working in your life. Then maybe after a while, you realized that God has His own way, and it's not what you expected.
I say this not to tell you what you already know, but to say it to anyone who has ears to hear. We can't make demands of God. We can say "God, if you're real, you'll do such and such".
It doesn't work that way. We can't make God fit into a box that we think He'll fit into.
Maybe someday certain people will hear God speaking to them. Instead of ignoring God, because He's not reaching out to them under their terms.
Yes, evidently there is more to my story given I obviously strongly believe God exists.
But I don't consider it relevant since Kenny went down another path to me so that's where any similarity I was trying to perhaps relate to ends.
Although God didn't reveal Himself to me in the way I wanted -- God didn't leave me hanging. My prayer didn't go unanswered. I realised that I needed reasons for why I believe rather than until that point in my life really just accepting such upon my religious experiences and the like growing up. Really, God led me to what I needed like I suppose a strong wind blowing.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
RickD wrote:
God is not a genie in a lamp, which does our bidding.
Now you tell me?! Im taking my lamp back to the shop for a refund
I bet you bought it with false promises, from that bookshop lady that fell off the horse.
Sounds like a scam she'd try to pull for a few £.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:
God is not a genie in a lamp, which does our bidding.
Now you tell me?! Im taking my lamp back to the shop for a refund
I bet you bought it with false promises, from that bookshop lady that fell off the horse.
Sounds like a scam she'd try to pull for a few £.
So... how does the foe button work again?
The foe button is after the tree button, and befoe the five button.
The foe list lets you ignore people's posts. But you can't ignore mods posts.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.
NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!
That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.
NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!
That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.
Ken
Not if you learn Spanish.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.
NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!
That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.
Ken
Not if you learn Spanish.
I don't think you know how profound that is.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Pictured myself like a Smith Wigglesworth or the like, evangelising and changing people's lives in the power and name of Jesus Christ.
